V50 General : - 1.8L petrol failed emissions badly - Page 2

thecuist · May 6th, 2015, 19:09

It has just occurred to me that when I fill up the car there is no hiss from the filler cap. That would suggest that the system is not sealing properly and I guess that as the purge valve is connected to the fuel tank, if the purge valve is stuck open there would be no pressure inside the tank and lots of fumes going into the engine. Hmm I wonder if this could be the answer to the problem. I have checked the seal on the filler cap and it seems to be in good condition and the cap closes properly as far as I can tell. Only weird thing is that there is no fault code relating to this valve. Most of the problems with this system seem to trigger a fault code.

KBB · May 7th, 2015, 06:01

It would be very useful if you cask the tech what to look at freeze frame data in particular what the RPM and load is at when the DTC is set. A DTC for the EVAP control valve will only set if the is an electrical open, short to ground or short to power. If it is mechanically stuck open the will be no DTC un less your EVAP system has the in tank pressure testing sub system and this is year and market specific. No need for VIDA to diagnose engine running faults a good quality scanner with bidirectional control will provide all the info required for a good tech to find the fault.

The is a huge misconception that fault codes point right to the fault (this is where the parts changing monkey's come unstuck), more often the codes them selves are symptoms' and not the cause.

Whyman · May 7th, 2015, 07:58

My OH Honda CRV failed on emissions about 4 years ago.

A colleague got me some Forte injector cleaner which I ran through as per the instructions. Car passed with flying colours and has done every year since then. Great stuff but I think it is only available through the motor trade.

thecuist · May 13th, 2015, 16:55

So having checked pretty much everything my tec guy has come back to me and said that the fuel pressure at the rail is 4.2bar which according to his data is too high. However he is unsure of exactly what it should be at idle, and also exactly how it is regulated. He spoke to a ford dealer and they weren't much help either. I have spoken to a volvo dealer and they are meant to be getting back to me. In the meantime is there anyone here who can give me definitive answers to the following questions.

1) what is the fuel pressure meant to be at idle on a Volvo V50 05reg. 1.8L petrol (NOT Bi-Fuel)

2) How is the fuel pressure controlled, I dont think it has the same setup as the T5 or the 2.4i which has a fuel pressure sensor that commonly failed.

It only has a single pipe to the fuel rail so no return, and no FPR on the rail. I'm guessing there is some kind of regulator or bypass in the fuel pump assembly in the tank

Any help would be much appreciated, you cannot believe how hard it is to find techs here on the west coast of Ireland.

MacV50 · May 14th, 2015, 18:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by thecuist

So having checked pretty much everything my tec guy has come back to me and said that the fuel pressure at the rail is 4.2bar which according to his data is too high. However he is unsure of exactly what it should be at idle, and also exactly how it is regulated. He spoke to a ford dealer and they weren't much help either. I have spoken to a volvo dealer and they are meant to be getting back to me. In the meantime is there anyone here who can give me definitive answers to the following questions.

1) what is the fuel pressure meant to be at idle on a Volvo V50 05reg. 1.8L petrol (NOT Bi-Fuel)

2) How is the fuel pressure controlled, I dont think it has the same setup as the T5 or the 2.4i which has a fuel pressure sensor that commonly failed.

It only has a single pipe to the fuel rail so no return, and no FPR on the rail. I'm guessing there is some kind of regulator or bypass in the fuel pump assembly in the tank

Any help would be much appreciated, you cannot believe how hard it is to find techs here on the west coast of Ireland.

No idea what the pressure should be but if there's no return pipe, there will be a sensor that regulates the fuel pump. Perhaps the sensor has gone bad but not so much as to cause the engine management light to come on.

thecuist · May 26th, 2015, 14:40

So thought I'd give an update on the V50 saga.
Basically having checked everything including replacing a MAP sensor which seemed to be reading a bit wonky the car was still chucking out HCs around the 800ppm mark. My tech guy said the only thing left that he could think of was oil control rings. We did a leakdown test and it came back perfect at only 7percent drop, but having scoured the net I came across an old timer test where you use engine braking down a steep hill and then accelerate at the bottom and look for blue smoke. Sure enough each time I did it there was a telltale cloud of blue, apparently this is a pretty definitive sign that the oil rings are gone. A phone call to FRF in Swansea later and I am informed that Volvo do not supply any bottom end internals for this car, you have to buy a whole new short end which is coming in at 3K this is not really an option as its more than the car is worth. More internet searches and it seems that aftermarket rings are thin on the ground too, a couple of Polish suppliers list them but I have no idea what kind of quality they would be or whether they would even fit.
Does anyone know of a reputable supplier who might have a set of rings for a Volvo V50 1.8L petrol. Or is it worth trying something old school like a Kerosene flush, as from what I'm reading on the Ford forums the oil control rings tend to get coked up rather than wear out, so if yu can clean off the crud sometimes the spring mechanism frees itself.
Ive also looked into getting a replacement engine but they are thin on the ground too, and pretty dam expensive.
Thanks in advance for any input.
Peter

KBB · May 26th, 2015, 20:00

I would not be keen to pursue that avenue until I had a good hard look at live data and look at what the short and long term fuel trims are doing at idle and part load whilst in closed loop.

thecuist · May 27th, 2015, 02:13

I would also rather not start spending 100s of pounds on engine rebuilds unless I was completely certain, but the tech guy I have been dealing with is the only one I can find reasonably locally who actually seems to understand the difference between closed loop and open loop. lol. I kid you not I took the car to a local garage who everyone uses and he didn't even have an exhaust gas analyser. 3 other local garages just wanted to change the CAT first and then go from there.
Anyways, to get back to your original suggestion the tech who has been looking at the car said to me that the o2 sensor was picking up the rich mixture and the ecu was leaning the fuel trim back as far as it could, but as the car was still running too rich the ecu was switching out of closed loop and back into open loop which as I understand it is a default map which is still too rich to pass emissions at idle.
I have to say that I am not 100percent confident that it is an oil ring or valve stem oil seal issue, but given the fact that the car is definitely giving out a noticeable amount of blue smoke at certain times and the mechanic does seem to know more or less what he's talking about (albeit in a slightly haphazard fashion) and the fact that the car does have a Duratec HE engine which has done 150K miles and there seems to be lots of anecdotal evidence on the net that these engines are prone to dodgy valve stem seals and oil control rings, I am reluctantly thinking that I may have to take the mechanics word for it.
I was looking at possibly buying one of these: https://www.obdsoftware.net/scantools/obdlinkmx. Would this enable me to gather the data you are looking for via their laptop based OBD2 software program. Or could you suggest something else. I spent a long time scouring the net for decent OBD2 equipment but there seems to be an awful lot of stuff that claims to be the best but probably isnt. I mean we need more than just fault codes, it has to have real time data streaming and while i dont think this has bi-directional capabilities it seems to be pretty comprehensive. The next step up in price looks to be heading towards £700+ which is more than I want to pay at the moment, given that I could well buy it and then still have to spend another 600 on getting oil control rings and valve seals done.
Thoughts?
Thanks
Peter

MacV50 · May 27th, 2015, 12:50

From what you've described regarding blue smoke, it sounds like you have a ring problem as my understanding is as follows

worn stem seals smoke on the over-run
worn rings smoke under power

Could you also be getting oil forced past the rings due to crankcase pressure being too high? Something as simple as a blocked breather perhaps?

This engine is used widely in Focus and Mondeos, perhaps you could find one by going down that route?

thecuist · Jun 2nd, 2015, 18:23

There are definitely issues with the valve stem oil seals. Cloud of blue smoke at startup after sitting overnight, and blue smoke on the overun after going down a hill using engine braking. I have managed to source a new set of rings and a new set of valve stem seals. My plan is to attempt to change the valve seals first without removing the head. Then test emissions again. If the problem remains I'll move onto the oil control rings. That way I can hopefully avoid having to strip down the engine if the valve seals do the job. I'll keep this thread updated with my progress for the benefit of others who may run into similar issues.

May 6th, 2015, 19:09	#11
thecuist thecuist Last Online: Sep 2nd, 2022 12:19 Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Castlebar, West of Ireland	Evaporative control valve It has just occurred to me that when I fill up the car there is no hiss from the filler cap. That would suggest that the system is not sealing properly and I guess that as the purge valve is connected to the fuel tank, if the purge valve is stuck open there would be no pressure inside the tank and lots of fumes going into the engine. Hmm I wonder if this could be the answer to the problem. I have checked the seal on the filler cap and it seems to be in good condition and the cap closes properly as far as I can tell. Only weird thing is that there is no fault code relating to this valve. Most of the problems with this system seem to trigger a fault code. Last edited by thecuist; May 6th, 2015 at 19:12.

May 7th, 2015, 07:58	#13
Whyman Premier Member Last Online: Today 17:02 Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Newark	My OH Honda CRV failed on emissions about 4 years ago. A colleague got me some Forte injector cleaner which I ran through as per the instructions. Car passed with flying colours and has done every year since then. Great stuff but I think it is only available through the motor trade. __________________ XC60 2013 D5 215 SE Lux Nav geartronic

May 13th, 2015, 16:55	#14
thecuist thecuist Last Online: Sep 2nd, 2022 12:19 Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Castlebar, West of Ireland	Update on failed emissions. So having checked pretty much everything my tec guy has come back to me and said that the fuel pressure at the rail is 4.2bar which according to his data is too high. However he is unsure of exactly what it should be at idle, and also exactly how it is regulated. He spoke to a ford dealer and they weren't much help either. I have spoken to a volvo dealer and they are meant to be getting back to me. In the meantime is there anyone here who can give me definitive answers to the following questions. 1) what is the fuel pressure meant to be at idle on a Volvo V50 05reg. 1.8L petrol (NOT Bi-Fuel) 2) How is the fuel pressure controlled, I dont think it has the same setup as the T5 or the 2.4i which has a fuel pressure sensor that commonly failed. It only has a single pipe to the fuel rail so no return, and no FPR on the rail. I'm guessing there is some kind of regulator or bypass in the fuel pump assembly in the tank Any help would be much appreciated, you cannot believe how hard it is to find techs here on the west coast of Ireland.

May 26th, 2015, 14:40	#16
thecuist thecuist Last Online: Sep 2nd, 2022 12:19 Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Castlebar, West of Ireland	Volvo V50 Oil Rings Shot So thought I'd give an update on the V50 saga. Basically having checked everything including replacing a MAP sensor which seemed to be reading a bit wonky the car was still chucking out HCs around the 800ppm mark. My tech guy said the only thing left that he could think of was oil control rings. We did a leakdown test and it came back perfect at only 7percent drop, but having scoured the net I came across an old timer test where you use engine braking down a steep hill and then accelerate at the bottom and look for blue smoke. Sure enough each time I did it there was a telltale cloud of blue, apparently this is a pretty definitive sign that the oil rings are gone. A phone call to FRF in Swansea later and I am informed that Volvo do not supply any bottom end internals for this car, you have to buy a whole new short end which is coming in at 3K this is not really an option as its more than the car is worth. More internet searches and it seems that aftermarket rings are thin on the ground too, a couple of Polish suppliers list them but I have no idea what kind of quality they would be or whether they would even fit. Does anyone know of a reputable supplier who might have a set of rings for a Volvo V50 1.8L petrol. Or is it worth trying something old school like a Kerosene flush, as from what I'm reading on the Ford forums the oil control rings tend to get coked up rather than wear out, so if yu can clean off the crud sometimes the spring mechanism frees itself. Ive also looked into getting a replacement engine but they are thin on the ground too, and pretty dam expensive. Thanks in advance for any input. Peter

May 7th, 2015, 06:01	#12
KBB Master Tech Last Online: May 18th, 2020 10:57 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: On Contract Dubai Automotve Technical Academy	It would be very useful if you cask the tech what to look at freeze frame data in particular what the RPM and load is at when the DTC is set. A DTC for the EVAP control valve will only set if the is an electrical open, short to ground or short to power. If it is mechanically stuck open the will be no DTC un less your EVAP system has the in tank pressure testing sub system and this is year and market specific. No need for VIDA to diagnose engine running faults a good quality scanner with bidirectional control will provide all the info required for a good tech to find the fault. The is a huge misconception that fault codes point right to the fault (this is where the parts changing monkey's come unstuck), more often the codes them selves are symptoms' and not the cause.

May 26th, 2015, 20:00	#17
KBB Master Tech Last Online: May 18th, 2020 10:57 Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: On Contract Dubai Automotve Technical Academy	I would not be keen to pursue that avenue until I had a good hard look at live data and look at what the short and long term fuel trims are doing at idle and part load whilst in closed loop.

May 27th, 2015, 02:13	#18
thecuist thecuist Last Online: Sep 2nd, 2022 12:19 Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Castlebar, West of Ireland	I would also rather not start spending 100s of pounds on engine rebuilds unless I was completely certain, but the tech guy I have been dealing with is the only one I can find reasonably locally who actually seems to understand the difference between closed loop and open loop. lol. I kid you not I took the car to a local garage who everyone uses and he didn't even have an exhaust gas analyser. 3 other local garages just wanted to change the CAT first and then go from there. Anyways, to get back to your original suggestion the tech who has been looking at the car said to me that the o2 sensor was picking up the rich mixture and the ecu was leaning the fuel trim back as far as it could, but as the car was still running too rich the ecu was switching out of closed loop and back into open loop which as I understand it is a default map which is still too rich to pass emissions at idle. I have to say that I am not 100percent confident that it is an oil ring or valve stem oil seal issue, but given the fact that the car is definitely giving out a noticeable amount of blue smoke at certain times and the mechanic does seem to know more or less what he's talking about (albeit in a slightly haphazard fashion) and the fact that the car does have a Duratec HE engine which has done 150K miles and there seems to be lots of anecdotal evidence on the net that these engines are prone to dodgy valve stem seals and oil control rings, I am reluctantly thinking that I may have to take the mechanics word for it. I was looking at possibly buying one of these: https://www.obdsoftware.net/scantools/obdlinkmx. Would this enable me to gather the data you are looking for via their laptop based OBD2 software program. Or could you suggest something else. I spent a long time scouring the net for decent OBD2 equipment but there seems to be an awful lot of stuff that claims to be the best but probably isnt. I mean we need more than just fault codes, it has to have real time data streaming and while i dont think this has bi-directional capabilities it seems to be pretty comprehensive. The next step up in price looks to be heading towards £700+ which is more than I want to pay at the moment, given that I could well buy it and then still have to spend another 600 on getting oil control rings and valve seals done. Thoughts? Thanks Peter

May 27th, 2015, 12:50	#19
MacV50 Master Member Last Online: Today 19:19 Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Aberdeen	From what you've described regarding blue smoke, it sounds like you have a ring problem as my understanding is as follows worn stem seals smoke on the over-run worn rings smoke under power Could you also be getting oil forced past the rings due to crankcase pressure being too high? Something as simple as a blocked breather perhaps? This engine is used widely in Focus and Mondeos, perhaps you could find one by going down that route?

Jun 2nd, 2015, 18:23	#20
thecuist thecuist Last Online: Sep 2nd, 2022 12:19 Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Castlebar, West of Ireland	There are definitely issues with the valve stem oil seals. Cloud of blue smoke at startup after sitting overnight, and blue smoke on the overun after going down a hill using engine braking. I have managed to source a new set of rings and a new set of valve stem seals. My plan is to attempt to change the valve seals first without removing the head. Then test emissions again. If the problem remains I'll move onto the oil control rings. That way I can hopefully avoid having to strip down the engine if the valve seals do the job. I'll keep this thread updated with my progress for the benefit of others who may run into similar issues.

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)