What makes a "British" car?

[john.wigley]

Recent discussion in another thread made me ponder?

Many years ago, it was common for there to be strong marque allegiances when it came to purchasing cars. " I'd never buy a foreign car, I've always been a 'Ford' man", or "He always buys a Vauxhall / Standard / Hillman" were oft-heard phrases. Even at the time, although the cars were assembled in Britain, many had some element of 'foreign' ownership about them.

In 1978, I bought a new Mini. What could be more British, thought I, it practically has a Union Jack painted on the roof (Some did (!))! Surprise, surprise. On inspecting it the following day, I spied a label under the bonnet stating that it had been assembled in Belgium. As it happened, it turned out to be a much better car than my pal's six months younger version that was built in Britain!

So, apart from possibly Morgan and TVR, has there ever been a truly 'British' car since the 1930s, or have we been deluding ourselves all along?

Regards, John.

[Prufrock]

Depends on your definition, TVR is no longer and Morgan is an assembly of parts from outside the UK, mostly the EU. Even in the past Morgan bought engines & components from Triumph, Ford and Rover, a company like Morgan could never afford to design and manufacture it's own components - neither could TVR or Lotus.

Once British people started to become a little better off they began buying foreign goods, this is well documented...so they began buying foreign cars. UK car makers were much more forwardly integrated than they are today - they were owners of their supply chains, which they are not and haven't been for many years.

If this is about"content"then British badges were more British in the past then they are today. Even Volvo in the 70s and 80s used to promote their high British content (even supplying a sticker in the bookpack - I have an unused sticker). I've mentioned this on the forum many times.

As long ago, or as recently as the 1980s (depends on your age), many fleets had a buy British policy which meant they could justify buying Nissan Bluebirds once Washington was on stream. So if you want to buy British, or keep British workers in jobs (for now), buy a Honda, Mini, Nissan or Toyota - the models they build here of course !

Jon.

[AndyJudge]

Originally Posted by Prufrock

As long ago, or as recently as the 1980s (depends on your age), many fleets had a buy British policy which meant they could justify buying Nissan Bluebirds once Washington was on stream. So if you want to buy British, or keep British workers in jobs (for now), buy a Honda, Mini, Nissan or Toyota - the models they build here of course !

Jon.

A lot of components for the 'British Built' cars are also made in the UK as well (Yes also the EU) they don't ship in Kit's to bolt together now.

A lot of design for them is also in the UK/EU as our tastes & requirements are somewhat different.

[cheshired5]

Originally Posted by john.wigley

Many years ago, it was common for there to be strong marque allegiances when it came to purchasing cars. " I'd never buy a foreign car, I've always been a 'Ford' man",

Ford classed as British?!

Ford is an American company who collaborated with the Nazis to destroy Britain so how anyone can suggest they're British is beyond me.

[warninglight]

Half my Volvo fleet was built in either Hungary or Belgium.

Still Swedish?

[Prufrock]

Originally Posted by cheshired5

Ford classed as British?!

Ford is an American company who collaborated with the Nazis to destroy Britain so how anyone can suggest they're British is beyond me.

That simply is not correct, and it might be an idea to stay within John's original topic. Ford, it could be argued (it is a weak argument), did indirectly collaborate with Germany as did GM/Opel (in fact GM/Opel more so) simply because car companies like others, were and are heavily influenced by the politics of the countries they operate in - although Ford of Germany (Fordwerke in 1939) did become a marginalised business shortly after it's establishment in 1925. As far as the Nazi regime was concerned Ford was always a producer of last resort.

Ford was also a company that assisted in the creation of the arsenal of democracy that helped defeat Germany.

It would also be useful to bear in mind that Sweden also collaborated with the Nazi regime in assisting the German occupation of Norway.

So let's stay on topic.

Jon.

[cheshired5]

Originally Posted by Prufrock

That simply is not correct, and it might be an idea to stay within John's original topic.

John repeated the often heard suggestion that buying Ford is somehow buying British.
Explaining why this is not the case is therefore entirely within the topic being discussed.

Originally Posted by Prufrock

Ford, it could be argued (it is a weak argument), did indirectly collaborate with Germany

Originally Posted by Prufrock

Ford of Germany (Fordwerke in 1939) did become a marginalised business shortly after it's establishment in 1925. As far as the Nazi regime was concerned Ford was always a producer of last resort.

If Ford was marginalised in 1925 and was a producer of last resort, why did Henry Ford receive the highest award possible for a foreigner in 1938?

Here he is receiving his Grand Cross of the German Eagle from the Nazis.....

A larger, clearer version is available here.

Hitler also kept a portrait of Henry Ford in his Munich office so with respect Prufrock, stop diluting the Ford/Nazi association.
Your version of history is like the airbrushed tripe they teach in schools.

[Prufrock]

Originally Posted by cheshired5

Hitler also kept a portrait of Henry Ford in his Munich office so with respect Prufrock, stop diluting the Ford/Nazi association.
Your version of history is like the airbrushed tripe they teach in schools.

I'm not diluting the Ford/Nazi association, you're just choosing to look at the matter one-dimensionally, and it is not my version of history.

The fact is that Hitler admired Henry Ford for two principal reasons -

1. The admiration of Fordism (i.e the manufacture of automobiles), Volkswagen particularly admired Ford's Rouge plant.
2. Henry Ford, this is not disputed, was an anti semite (it doesn't make him nice, but doesn't make him a Nazi sympathiser either).

Henry Ford said, when given the award, that it did NOT signify his admiration or even sympathy for Nazism - this is not my opinion but a well documented fact. Henry Ford also received awards from France, India, Poland, Romania and Great Britain (the first foreigner to receive the James Watt Medal) - the corollary is that your post displays naivety at best for failing to look at the matter in the round.

Jon.

[Prufrock]

Originally Posted by cheshired5

John repeated the often heard suggestion that buying Ford is somehow buying British.

Buying Ford could have been regarded as buying British simply because Ford assembled cars in the UK* and the majority of components were sourced here and this includes the iron and steel that made the engine blocks in Ford's huge plant at Dagenham on the River Thames.

Employment at Dageham peaked at 40.000, so jobs for British people, another qualification for buying British, British made.

Jon.

*sadly no Ford vehicles are assembled in the UK.

[cheshired5]

Originally Posted by Prufrock

Henry Ford said, when given the award, that it did NOT signify his admiration or even sympathy for Nazism

Oh, well if Henry said it, it must be true ..... and you have the gall to suggest I'm naive?

Back on topic, my point was that Ford isn't, wasn't, never has been and never will be British.
This is fact and I have no idea why you're challenging it.