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2.4t (200bhp) misfire cylinder one.

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Old Apr 19th, 2018, 13:33   #1
Footfistart
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Default 2.4t (200bhp) misfire cylinder one.

Afternoon I have read on here and some peopLe have had a p0301 being cylinder one misfire. Now first thing I did was to pull the coil out and it had some oil on it. Cleaned it out it back in and still misfired. Swapped for number two coil and started it and then pulled the plug off of number one. Engine note did not change. Pulled number two out ( had number one coil in) and sure enough engine when sluggish and regain strength. Then I pulled the rest and it did the same thing. Went to stall and perked up again.

Put original coil back in and started it and pulled the plug off and nothing happened but instead I got a p0351 code which was coil A something which pointed that I had unplugged the coil. So I think the spark plug is knackered in that cylinder but they are Volvo ones and they were gapped for lpg as the car has a gas kit fitted.

Before anyone comments yes it misfires on both gas and petrol.

So I’m not too sure on what to do. I think I may have to do a compression test to see what it’s doing. I’ve been told it should be between 11 and 13bar (160-180ish psi. Sound about right?

Now I haven’t done a test like this in this car so what things do I need to pull to stop it from starting or flooding my engine?

Also been told to open the throttle up but it’s electronic one so will it still move with ignition on?

The cars head gasket failed a few years back previous owner but it wasn’t done properly as the car had stalling issues so the head was pulled off and sure enough I had a bad gasket. So everything was redone and all genuine me Volvo parts and that issue went away.

I have a coolant issue though as my system over pressuring but I think that’s to do with my lpg system with a failing vaporiser but I have another thread for that.

Any suggestions would be great

Ryan
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Old Apr 19th, 2018, 17:26   #2
BarryCambs
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Have you pulled the plug out of cylinder number one to see what it looks like? If it is a head gasket, you might see water on it. Try running it for just a few seconds from cold then looking a the plug. It seems a bit suspicious that you have an over pressuring problem at the same time, but I'm not familiar with lpg engines.

With a compression test, you do normally do it with the throttle open, but here, you are looking for the difference between cylinder 1 and the rest, so it shouldn't be critical if the etm doesn't open.
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Old Apr 19th, 2018, 19:15   #3
reggit
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LPG is no different than petrol in that it is a fuel for the engine to run on.

I would get a sniff test done on the coolant if it is overpressuring, that may confirm if the HG has breached compression to coolant.

One of my favourite tests - get a can of easystart and spray a little up the air intake with the engine running - caution it may race - and see if the misfiring cylinder picks up briefly. If it picks up you most likely have a fueling issue.

The other way would be to swap the fuel injector from Cyl 1 to another one and see if the fault moves with it - if it's like the D5 you'll need sealing washers if you do this.
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Old Apr 20th, 2018, 04:12   #4
petey
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I would generally try to resist swapping bits about largely at random, you can take a good component and subject it to a damaging environment and break that too.

If there’s a misfire on number 1 then it’s one of three things:- compression, spark or fuel. You believe the spark generation to be correct, so pull the plugs and have a look, ensuring you keep them in order. One of them may be blacker than the others (not firing), one might be much cleaner than the others (steam cleaned by coolant.)
Run a compression test. With all four plugs out, disconnect the coils and crank with full throttle pedal. It’s best to have an assistant do this so that you can look at the rise on the high pressure gauge. Does it leap up, does it creep up?. The throttle plate should respond because that’s how you start a flooded engine, and even if it doesn’t, it’s the same for all cylinders. All you need to look for is an outlier. You might also see a splash of fuel from the plug hole. Are they all the same? You don’t need to crank for hours, just enough for the gauge to stabilise, 2 seconds or so per pot. You won’t be pouring pints of fuel through the engine
It’s better to do this with a warm engine, the battery will have an easier time and pistons will be rounder but it’s not essential.
Take reasonable precautions against fuel leakage, clean up as you go and leave time for fuel to vent off at the end(the warm engine helps here)

Do all that, and you should have a fair idea what the cause is.
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Old Apr 21st, 2018, 18:40   #5
Footfistart
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Done more investigation today.

First thing was to start the car and hear for Misfire. Didn’t misfire when cold. Got it warmed up to operating temperature and still nothing so I went out with father in law and took it for a bit of a thrashing to look for hesitant or jerking. Nothing so when back home and as I pulled up the car was missing and the coolant was 110c. Soon cooled to 87c but it was missing. Pulled the coil out to find the rubber insulator damaged and the spark plug well had some oil in it. Cleaned both up and did a temp repair on the rubber insulator. Made no difference. Pulled spark plug out and found it to be normal colour as you’d expect from a normal running engine. Placed the spark back in.

I then swapped coils between one and three and started the car and was missing straight away. Unplugged the coil (good one from three) and no change to the engine tone. Plugged in and pulled number three (originally from one) and engine slowed down as expected. So that rules out bad coils. Swapped spark plugs over from one and three and carried out the same test above and made no difference. Number one didn’t change engine time but three did.

Looked down inside number one to find a blackish piston. Remember this car is 18years old. Looked in number three to find the same thing. I was running out of time today to check the rest of the plug holes for any steam cleaning.

Placed everything back and I plugged my Bluetooth obd in and it still came up with cylinder one misfire p0301. I took the spark plug out of number one again and fires up the car and obviously the car really struggles to start and sustain some sort of engine speed. Not sure what that was meant to achieve but I guess it acted the way it should.

So this seems to be happening when warm to hot. I work a late shift and I have managed to borrow a compression tester for tomorrow.

Ryan
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Old Apr 21st, 2018, 18:51   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petey View Post
I would generally try to resist swapping bits about largely at random, you can take a good component and subject it to a damaging environment and break that too.

If there’s a misfire on number 1 then it’s one of three things:- compression, spark or fuel. You believe the spark generation to be correct, so pull the plugs and have a look, ensuring you keep them in order. One of them may be blacker than the others (not firing), one might be much cleaner than the others (steam cleaned by coolant.)
Run a compression test. With all four plugs out, disconnect the coils and crank with full throttle pedal. It’s best to have an assistant do this so that you can look at the rise on the high pressure gauge. Does it leap up, does it creep up?. The throttle plate should respond because that’s how you start a flooded engine, and even if it doesn’t, it’s the same for all cylinders. All you need to look for is an outlier. You might also see a splash of fuel from the plug hole. Are they all the same? You don’t need to crank for hours, just enough for the gauge to stabilise, 2 seconds or so per pot. You won’t be pouring pints of fuel through the engine
It’s better to do this with a warm engine, the battery will have an easier time and pistons will be rounder but it’s not essential.
Take reasonable precautions against fuel leakage, clean up as you go and leave time for fuel to vent off at the end(the warm engine helps here)

Do all that, and you should have a fair idea what the cause is.
Sorry I did forget to mentio I have a five pot so when the engine is running and missing it’s not bucking very much until it’s really hot then it struggles a little especially when Turing in full lock for example.

I am under the impression that yes it’s one of three things it can be for a misfire. Fuel is there for sure as you can smell the unburnt stuff in the exhaust for a start and could smell it when I took the spark plug out today. Also I know the lpg system is fine or the car would act very strange when running in that mode so I’ve ruled that out and this is a genuine issue.

I have swapped and I know you said to resist but I had to see if I had a bad coil or spark plug. Plugs seem fine and are gapped correctly (Volvo genuine). Swapped plugs from one and three to see if the fault moves and no change. Swapped coils from one and three and no change. Started the car with plug out and did what was expected but struggling to start. Unplugged the coils again one by one but no change still doesn’t change the engine tone when cylinder one coil is unplugged. Which then leads me to compression issues. I don’t have blocked filters or I’d have either a multiple misfire and the car would run like a complete dog. The fact when about 2krpm it’s fine just low down rpm range you feel it judder through steering column and vibrate in general.

Apparently I just need to pull the fuel pump relay. Shall I pull anything for ignition too? This engine is a five cylinder turbo which is why it runs slightly smoother as the other four are firing normally.

I don’t have any equipment for a leak down test unfortunately and like I said before I don’t have any symtoms of head gasket as far as I’m aware.

Ryan
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Old Apr 21st, 2018, 19:54   #7
petey
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You should pull the fuel pump relay, but in 30 years, I don’t recall ever worrying too much. Remember, you should have full compression in the cylinder after 3 rotations or so. You’re really not cranking it for that long, but yes, the official method is to defeat the fuel delivery.

Referring to your comment relating to fuel being ok because you can smell it, a dribbling injector might pour pints of the stuff in, but if it’s not atomised, it really won’t burn all that well.
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Old Apr 22nd, 2018, 22:09   #8
Footfistart
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Right so today I did the compression test. Did it on a hot engine. My results were

#1: dry: 12.5bar. Wet. 13.5
#2: dry: 13bar. Wet. 14.5
#3: dry:13bar. Wet. 14.5
#4: dry:13bar. Wet. 14.5
#5: dry:13bar. Wet. 15


So compression Although a little off but they are on the top limit. However when I pulled cylinder one plug out it was oily and the piston was a shiny black rather than a Matt colour. They are all black from carbon but #1 is shiny which may explain my misfire. But I’m not sure what it could be though. I did clean the earthing point for the coils just to see if anything improves which I doubt very much but remember this seems to happen when the car is hot. So His also happen on lpg so it’s extremely unlikely both injectors would fail and you can hear the lpg injector click on and off anyways.

Ryan
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Old Apr 22nd, 2018, 23:28   #9
reggit
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Is there actually a spark at the plug? Are the coil packs driven from an ecu? If so has it developed a fault, most likely a dry joint?
Lots of questions as I drive an oil burner.
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Old Apr 23rd, 2018, 06:48   #10
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It’s not just the empirical value of th compression test, it’s how quickly it rose.
When you say wet, do you mean you squirted a little oil down the bore?
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