Any Advice?

[john.wigley]

Originally Posted by Chris152

Browsing the net and looking at details of various cars, I realised I couldn't recall all the advice you've given, so I've gone back through and pulled out what I think is most important info for us at the moment. Accepting that some of these are clearly swings and roundabouts, we need to consider:

L, LH Jetronic and Motronic - improved power and economy over carbs and K Jetronic (question - how will I know what injection system is in any car - is it by date?);
Avoid smaller engines (ie 2.0) as they are underpowered, less mpg and wear out - go for 2.3;
Later 240s have better rust protection (any idea what date this started?), and avoid significant signs of rust below tailgate and behind rear bumper, this can be a sign of expensive rust further down;
If manual, try to get overdrive for better ride and economy; 5-speed better still as no overdrive to go wrong (I think I read that elsewhere) but they can get noisy after 200 000 miles (question - do some autos have OD? I see that's what's written above);

IIRC There were three Auto trans fitted to the 2-series cars:
i) Borg-Warner 35 - 3-speed unit fitted to very early cars - you're unlikely to meet this.
ii) Borg-Warner 55 - still 3-speed - a development of the 35 fitted to later cars.
iii) Aisan-Warner 70 and 71 - 3-speed with a lock-up overdrive - fitted to later cars still and arguably the one to have.

Avoid post-1991 (J-reg) as the cat saps power and economy and can be expensive to replace;
245GLE/GLT looks a good match to our needs (tho the 'T' could be expensive for insurance for him).

Can't fault your logic 'Chris152'; that would be my choice too! Trouble is, they are also the most sought after and as such often carry a high price premium. So far we have not discussed a budget. Assuming your son has limited funds available was why I suggested the 'A' reg car currently offered for sale in these forums; that has to be a bargain at just over scrap value and you could always get it transported home to work on it there.

With those pointers in mind we have something like a target car in mind, and can work back from that according to what comes up for sale. Any corrections very welcome!
Thanks.

I trust your lad appreciates just how lucky he is to have a dad who takes such a keen interest in his welfare!

Regards, John.

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Chris152

Browsing the net and looking at details of various cars, I realised I couldn't recall all the advice you've given, so I've gone back through and pulled out what I think is most important info for us at the moment. Accepting that some of these are clearly swings and roundabouts, we need to consider:

L, LH Jetronic and Motronic - improved power and economy over carbs and K Jetronic (question - how will I know what injection system is in any car - is it by date?);
Avoid smaller engines (ie 2.0) as they are underpowered, less mpg and wear out - go for 2.3;
Later 240s have better rust protection (any idea what date this started?), and avoid significant signs of rust below tailgate and behind rear bumper, this can be a sign of expensive rust further down;
If manual, try to get overdrive for better ride and economy; 5-speed better still as no overdrive to go wrong (I think I read that elsewhere) but they can get noisy after 200 000 miles (question - do some autos have OD? I see that's what's written above);
Avoid post-1991 (J-reg) as the cat saps power and economy and can be expensive to replace;
245GLE/GLT looks a good match to our needs (tho the 'T' could be expensive for insurance for him).

With those pointers in mind we have something like a target car in mind, and can work back from that according to what comes up for sale. Any corrections very welcome!
Thanks.

As Loki pointed out, the "T" in GLT is not for a turbo. It's Grand Luxury Tourer/Touring depending on your viewpoint as some argue "Touring" only applies to estate models.
The "E" in GLE historically for Volvo was used to denote fuel injection (from the German word einspritzt = injection, dates back to the Bosch injection on the 164GLE) but with the more widespread adoption of fuel injection has generally come to mean "Executive" .

To give a more universal idea of the comparison between a GLT and GLE mechanically, they're usually very similar with the GLT having a slightly lower ratio back axle (normally!) to give slightly livelier acceleration.
Other manufacturers examples of the relationship between GLT and GLE are roughly speaking :

Ford GT = GLT, Ghia = GLE
Vauxhall SRi = GLT, CDi = GLE

I picked those as they're mainstream models to illustrate the basic differences, Loki has gone in details of trim etc so i won't repeat all that.

As for the injection systems, i believe Motronic came in (officially) around 1996 although some refer to the LH system as Motronic. Any 240 you buy with electronic injection will be either L or LH Jetronic. Most are likely to be K-Jetronic (mechanical injection) which is generally a reliable system and has no ECU to go wrong.

I'm not sure when the improved rustproofing started on the 240, i know it started as a result of cheap Russian steel that was on the market in the mid 70s so many early (pre 1980) 240s have now succumbed to Tin-wormski. That's one of the reasons i suggested go for as late a model as possible.

Any 4-speed auto is overdrive, the 3rd ratio (whether it's denoted as "3" or "D") will be the same as 4th in a manual car, 1:1 ratio.
On the ZF box, the forward speeds (if memory serves) are denoted as 1, 2, 3, D and on the AW7x transmissions, 1, 2, D with a button on the side of the gear lever. This is an "overdrive defeat" button, after selecting "D", press this button and it should bring an orange upwards poiniting arrow on the instrument cluster. Automatic shifts are restricted to the first 3 gears. Press the button again to release the defeat and it should (above 45-50 on a light ish throttle) shift into overdrive/top gear.
The defeat is handy for overtaking when you don't want/need full kickdown for overtaking. For example, you're on a dual carriageway/motorway at 70mph, slight incline and a lorry in front of you and limited time to get past - kickdown would be too much but you still need a bit extra on a part-throttle overtake. Squeeze the loud pedal, hit the defeat button and it drops into 3rd, accelerating better than it would in overdrive and as you reach the sped you want, hit the defeat button again and as soon as the box senses the normal circumstances to engage 4th (O/D) it changes up.

Similar can be done on the ZF box but you need to move the lever to 3 and then back to D.

[AlexO]

I've got a '92 240 Estate for sale if you're interested? It was great as my first car, lots of work done by myself to learn the ropes but he can still put his stamp on it. It's in the Sales section, drop me a PM if you're after any other information.

Cheers

Alex

[Chris152]

Thanks for the replies all.

Loki - thanks for that correction - I was just assuming what the T stood for, things are never so simple! Toys are good things but on the down side, they tend to go wrong (my 850 was a T5 which I loved, but had all kinds of bits that the kids, when small, could fiddle with and started going wrong, which is why I got rid of it in the end. I'm sure we all look back at cars we had which now would have been worth hanging on to!).

LS - those comparisons are really helpful, and I'll try to avoid anything that might suffer from tin-wormski. On transmission, things are becoming slightly clearer as I'm reading all the replies.

John and Alex - budget is a low as possible for maximum return. Hmmm. But definitely something we can drive home - when the plan was to get something needing lots of work (very cheap) for him to learn on and another modern car to drive, condition on the project didn't matter, but now we've found one car that he can learn to work on and also drive, I'd rather put the money into something that's together already and just could be improved. When I've bought in the past, I've always looked for fsh and lower mileage and it's more or less worked for me.
As for budget, I saw this which is slightly over but if it was an estate, I'd try to negotiate: https://www.facebook.com/marketplace...4181496489371/
And I really appreciate your last comment, John - I'm pretty sure the answer's yes, he does. And he'll be reading this soon, so the answer's yes, he'd better. :-)

[Chris152]

OK, reality of what's out there kicking in. Given what's been said about the smaller engines, is a 5-speed manual 1990 2.0L GL, 12 months MoT, 185000 miles, price about half the one I linked to above, a bad idea? I'm sure lots of variables could affect the car, but all things being equal?

[Dippydog]

Can't comment on pricing as I can't see the FB advert[I don't do "social"media] It's the mid eighties since I had a 245-and then it was an auto-but would imagine it's much like my V70[140] in that it's no ball of fire,never going to win a "traffic light GP" but is more than capable of holding its own in modern traffic.This may or may not be a good thing but it might teach him how to read the road ahead/anticipation for any overtakes rather than relying on sheer grunt to pass slower moving traffic.If the price seems reasonable to you and as it has a full "ticket" it can't hurt to have a look/test drive can it?

[john.wigley]

The two litre was introduced to get below a tax threshold in, I think, Italy, Chris.

As 'L.S,' said, it will do the business, but has to work harder to do it, which tends to hurt economy. Unless your lad is looking to carry heavy loads and / or haul a heavy trailer, it will probably serve him very well. Why not take an extended test drive and see how he gets on with it?

If the rest of the car is sound, it may not be an unreasonable compromise to accept the smaller engine. It is much better to buy a good car with a smaller engine than a poor one with the larger one, and It may also help with his insurance, too. From your description at, I assume, c£1500, it doesn't sound a bad buy at all.

Is there perhaps a knowledgeable forum member in your area who might be prepared to look at it with you in exchange for some beer tokens, to give you greater confidence?

Regards, John.

[Chris152]

We'll definitely take it for a test drive if we can (I have to take out a day's insurance as mine counts as a commercial vehicle, so the insurance doesn't cover driving someone else's car) and take it from there. But it does seem like it may be a shame not to wait for the right car - I'm sure the 15% less engine capacity could make quite a difference over nearly 200 000 miles. And now another 2L one (Torslanda) has come on the radar - being patient vs not missing a good thing's not an easy balance...

ps - looking to the future, is it a much more complex job to replace a 2L engine with a 2.3L engine than to replace a 2L with a 2L? Does everything fit both engines or do you end up having to replace all kinds of other bits?

[Bob Meadows]

I certainly wouldn’t get hung up regarding the 2.0 Ltr. The cars are more than capable in today’s traffic- you have to accept that these are from a different era and cannot compete with modern lightweight cars produced today. You will drive a classic for all the reasons already noted so the advantages out way the minor engine size- none are designed to be fast cars- none of them are! Just drive it with consideration in every aspect. Service it properly & the 2 Litre will take you to the moon and back.
Good Luck.
Bob.

(You will soon find out why people stop and say "I had one- best car I ever owned")

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Chris152

ps - looking to the future, is it a much more complex job to replace a 2L engine with a 2.3L engine than to replace a 2L with a 2L? Does everything fit both engines or do you end up having to replace all kinds of other bits?

As long as you replace more or less like for like e.g. B200E for B230E you shouldn't have any problems. The grief comes when you start going from n/asp to turbo and the more involved ignition/fuel ECUs and pipework they need, not to mention different exhaust systems on the turbos.

For a simple capacity increase, few if any problems and the argument would exist that you bought it from a scrapyard as a 2.0 engine and fitted it, while you know one end of a spanner from the other you weren't aware (or even looking) for capacity details. You could even say it was in the car when you got it and had no reason to doubt it......

Originally Posted by Bob Meadows

I certainly wouldn’t get hung up regarding the 2.0 Ltr. The cars are more than capable in today’s traffic- you have to accept that these are from a different era and cannot compete with modern lightweight cars produced today. You will drive a classic for all the reasons already noted so the advantages out way the minor engine size- none are designed to be fast cars- none of them are! Just drive it with consideration in every aspect. Service it properly & the 2 Litre will take you to the moon and back.
Good Luck.
Bob.

(You will soon find out why people stop and say "I had one- best car I ever owned")

In many ways i agree but let's not forget that even when new, the 2.0 240s weren't exactly a ball of fire and contemporary 1.6s (and sometimes smaller) would easily outperform them because they were so underpowered!
That will reflect even more harshly in todays world. The extra 300cc makes a huge difference so going for the B230 from the off would be the only way i'd consider it. That said i'e always knwon high performance cars and learned to drive in a straight-6, 2.4 EFi in the early 80s. Took my test in an MG Metro but that's another story!

I now have a B280E powered 760GLE and that is a world apart from the B230E 740GLEs i've previously had. In terms of performance and economy it's still no match for my other car which is a 2.7 V6 but they're totally different animals. They do however share a 90 degree V6 architecture, a 4-speed auto box (overdrive 4th obviosuly) and a similar kerb-weight of just under 1500kg.
However, no estate version of that car exists, the closest estate i have found in terms of size, equipment, performance, comfort, quality etc is the 760GLE estate.
For that i'm willing to compromise on the performance/economy.