09 D5 Used Oil analysis.

[tt82]

Well the results are finally in. Intresting reading so far, but I definately need to do a bit of research in order to fully understand it! A few notes.

1. They've got the engine code wrong, it should be D5244T4, not D5244T8. I'll email them that and see what they say.
2. The threads on the airbox have been stripped on some bolts, I need to get that sorted really, so I know of at least one issue with the air intake and need to look for others.
3. The mileage on the oil is over double what they normally get so high readings aren't too concnerning.
4. Despite the recall for rising oil levels due to DPf regeneration, the fuel value in the oil is extremely good and thats reassuring.
5. As is that the TBN values are all still good, so the pricey oil is actually doing it's job and is worth it!

[skyship007]

Originally Posted by tt82

Well the results are finally in. Intresting reading so far, but I definately need to do a bit of research in order to fully understand it! A few notes.

1. They've got the engine code wrong, it should be D5244T4, not D5244T8. I'll email them that and see what they say.
2. The threads on the airbox have been stripped on some bolts, I need to get that sorted really, so I know of at least one issue with the air intake and need to look for others.
3. The mileage on the oil is over double what they normally get so high readings aren't too concnerning.
4. Despite the recall for rising oil levels due to DPf regeneration, the fuel value in the oil is extremely good and thats reassuring.
5. As is that the TBN values are all still good, so the pricey oil is actually doing it's job and is worth it!

Firstly the Silicon figure is indeed high, although it will vary between summer and winter (Lower in winter). 30 ppm is about the max, so the air filter unit does have an issue, although not a serious one.

The top end is wearing more than the bottom end (No Lead, so main bearings are happy), although that may just be driver style or number of cold starts etc.
Iron tracks engine hours and as yours is over double the universal average, it's a bit high. It should be about double the UA etc.

The fuel contamination figure is based on the flashpoint figure and the minor amount is not enough to thin the oil in viscosity terms, so of no significance. The TBN does look real good and is about one third of the original TBN, so the Calcium detergents are still functioning.

Although this report is OK in general terms, the rather high top end wear metals indicate it might be worth trying an oil with a better group of anti wear/friction modifiying and extreme pressure additives. The Edge in use does not contain any Moly or Boron additives which most other top of the range oils do.

The two things that I would do would be to try a top of the range oil additive that contains MoS2 or the more expensive Liqui Moly Ceratec, which contains both Moly and Boron Nitride to see if that cuts the Aluminium and Iron figures. Ceratec is approved for use with a DPF.
The other issue is oil flow patterns, because if the block has any top end varnish around the head it will result in increased top end wear metals. I would just try a pre oil & filter change idle flush additive to shift any deposits. The LM additive is very effective at removing any varnish, but it will cause a false drop in the oil viscosity figure and a 2% fuel contamination figure due to the thin base if you take a sample (Never use a drive around flush additive with a turbo). It won't effect the actual UOA readings.

Not sure how you use your car, but I would not increase the OCI any more until the Iron and Aluminium figures can be reduced. If an idle flush and extra additives (Or changing to a better oil like Ultra that does contain both Moly and Boron additives) don't improve the figures then I would be inclined to cut the OCI to see if that helps, BUT as this is only a first set of readings you will know more when a trend is established. The oil might still be cleaning out some previous sludge for example.

[tt82]

Originally Posted by skyship007

Firstly the Silicon figure is indeed high, although it will vary between summer and winter (Lower in winter). 30 ppm is about the max, so the air filter unit does have an issue, although not a serious one.

I have a theory on this, will send you a PM.

Originally Posted by skyship007

The top end is wearing more than the bottom end (No Lead, so main bearings are happy), although that may just be driver style or number of cold starts etc.
Iron tracks engine hours and as yours is over double the universal average, it's a bit high. It should be about double the UA etc.

Hmm, the number of cold starts will be high but then the miles per annum is also higher then average.

Originally Posted by skyship007

The fuel contamination figure is based on the flashpoint figure and the minor amount is not enough to thin the oil in viscosity terms, so of no significance. The TBN does look real good and is about one third of the original TBN, so the Calcium detergents are still functioning.

Need to look further at this TBN figure to understand it, especially as it cost an extra $10 to do.

Originally Posted by skyship007

Although this report is OK in general terms, the rather high top end wear metals indicate it might be worth trying an oil with a better group of anti wear/friction modifiying and extreme pressure additives. The Edge in use does not contain any Moly or Boron additives which most other top of the range oils do.

The two things that I would do would be to try a top of the range oil additive that contains MoS2 or the more expensive Liqui Moly Ceratec, which contains both Moly and Boron Nitride to see if that cuts the Aluminium and Iron figures. Ceratec is approved for use with a DPF.
The other issue is oil flow patterns, because if the block has any top end varnish around the head it will result in increased top end wear metals. I would just try a pre oil & filter change idle flush additive to shift any deposits. The LM additive is very effective at removing any varnish, but it will cause a false drop in the oil viscosity figure and a 2% fuel contamination figure due to the thin base if you take a sample (Never use a drive around flush additive with a turbo). It won't effect the actual UOA readings.

Might buy some Ceratec and add it to my oil now. If I tell Blackstone will they be able to factor it in on the viscosity figures? Can you further explain the idle flush as it seems conflicting with your advice about a drive around flush additive.

I gather you mean changing the oil and filter prior to service and just letting idle, but without using any flush additive.

Originally Posted by skyship007

Not sure how you use your car, but I would not increase the OCI any more until the Iron and Aluminium figures can be reduced. If an idle flush and extra additives (Or changing to a better oil like Ultra that does contain both Moly and Boron additives) don't improve the figures then I would be inclined to cut the OCI to see if that helps, BUT as this is only a first set of readings you will know more when a trend is established. The oil might still be cleaning out some previous sludge for example.

I don't really intend to increase the OCI above the Volvo 1 year/18,000 mile interval for my car.

[Backhill1]

Please do not start adding additives. Your sample results are fine and they themselves said they based their base line on a 8K interval.

The trouble with samples is you get people over analysing data hence why I like the traffic light system, is it a problem or not.

Based on what you have taken at change interval tells you your oil was still ok at time of change with life left in it, with nothing untoward floating about!

Additives have to be chosen very carefully in line with what is in the base oils, and detergents can actually work against the properties of the oil and create foaming / lack of lubrication and actually a breakdown of detergents.

If whatever the recommended product which is promoted by Skyship “all the time as a fix all solution” has been tested and proven with your oil which (which incidentally is performing very well) it might improve engine life to ?% and also however at what cost if it breaks your original oil properties down. I’m not sure if he works for this additive company but certainly does not offer impartial advice instead of promoting a product.

Tribology and oil design is a science in itself and not one to be played with in live engines that you rely on day in and out.

Take a pat on the back from your samples, whatever you are presently doing is good and stick with it, no need to change! The air/box gash is nonsense for an EGR driven engine!

My advice would be stick with constant data, oil type and intervals and sample before change.

The engine manufacturer I represent recommend sampling from a running engine after the filter at operating temp as the design of modern oil is to suspend particles and retain in the sump, so taking from the sump can result in an actual false reading picking up the crud where it’s supposed to be!

Hence why it’s best to use for trending and to form a base line, which this Blackstone appear to be doing so good on them. So if you start to trend with them they will pick up something wrong (sharp rise in a property) anyone that can base an opinion on a first sample from a used engine is simply “flying a Kite” as they have nothing to base on! During Engine testing we test the new oil (From the drum)which at that point it never meets its ISO standard and we have to flush through 1 micron filters until it passes on the particle counter before it goes in the engine. We than test every hour throughout a test to terns the first 12 hours of its life!

So to put it in perspective unless you know the properties (as tested) of what you put in how can you judge the sample (as in adding additives etc.).

TT82 I admire your interest and care in your engine as a fellow 185 owner (I think) I am also keen to keep on top of mine.

[Backhill1]

Originally Posted by skyship007

Firstly the Silicon figure is indeed high, although it will vary between summer and winter (Lower in winter). 30 ppm is about the max, so the air filter unit does have an issue, although not a serious one.

The top end is wearing more than the bottom end (No Lead, so main bearings are happy), although that may just be driver style or number of cold starts etc.
Iron tracks engine hours and as yours is over double the universal average, it's a bit high. It should be about double the UA etc.

The fuel contamination figure is based on the flashpoint figure and the minor amount is not enough to thin the oil in viscosity terms, so of no significance. The TBN does look real good and is about one third of the original TBN, so the Calcium detergents are still functioning.

Although this report is OK in general terms, the rather high top end wear metals indicate it might be worth trying an oil with a better group of anti wear/friction modifiying and extreme pressure additives. The Edge in use does not contain any Moly or Boron additives which most other top of the range oils do.

The two things that I would do would be to try a top of the range oil additive that contains MoS2 or the more expensive Liqui Moly Ceratec, which contains both Moly and Boron Nitride to see if that cuts the Aluminium and Iron figures. Ceratec is approved for use with a DPF.
The other issue is oil flow patterns, because if the block has any top end varnish around the head it will result in increased top end wear metals. I would just try a pre oil & filter change idle flush additive to shift any deposits. The LM additive is very effective at removing any varnish, but it will cause a false drop in the oil viscosity figure and a 2% fuel contamination figure due to the thin base if you take a sample (Never use a drive around flush additive with a turbo). It won't effect the actual UOA readings.

Not sure how you use your car, but I would not increase the OCI any more until the Iron and Aluminium figures can be reduced. If an idle flush and extra additives (Or changing to a better oil like Ultra that does contain both Moly and Boron additives) don't improve the figures then I would be inclined to cut the OCI to see if that helps, BUT as this is only a first set of readings you will know more when a trend is established. The oil might still be cleaning out some previous sludge for example.

Skyship just some comments on your recommendations.

Have you had a PM on exact oil in use as you appear to not know what Oil has been tested and The Castrol Edge data on the chitty could cover many different oils by your own admission on previous posts in relation to quality?

Therefore are you promoting additives as a stock answer? We see this all the time where people think they know more than the manufacturer, we seldom get it wrong as we develop engines with a lubricant standard.

Also how can you recommend additives and flushing without knowing in detail this data? Also how do you conclude varnishing and the elimination??
This is an extremely rare phenomenon in modern diesels (generally associated with petrol engines) how do you conclude this is going on?? I bet you could strip every D5 ever built at 150K in the UK and none would show signs of varnishing. How would this manifest itself?

Please I’m not having a go but I find it dangerous when people are making recommendations without asking all the correct questions and putting owners vehicles / engines at risk with no liability or accountability for their advice.

Volvo do genuinely know what they are doing and if they thought this was the future they would be asking Castrol to add at the refinery.

Perhaps you should register in the traders section more honestly rather than trying to steer people towards certain products with no ramifications for your advice. If you have no allegiance to these products then I apologise for insinuating so but your engine history does not indicate otherwise i.e. @ 1,000,000 miles on original block and pistons.

[tt82]

Originally Posted by Backhill1

Please do not start adding additives. Your sample results are fine and they themselves said they based their base line on a 8K interval.

The trouble with samples is you get people over analysing data hence why I like the traffic light system, is it a problem or not.

Based on what you have taken at change interval tells you your oil was still ok at time of change with life left in it, with nothing untoward floating about!

Additives have to be chosen very carefully in line with what is in the base oils, and detergents can actually work against the properties of the oil and create foaming / lack of lubrication and actually a breakdown of detergents.

If whatever the recommended product which is promoted by Skyship “all the time as a fix all solution” has been tested and proven with your oil which (which incidentally is performing very well) it might improve engine life to ?% and also however at what cost if it breaks your original oil properties down. I’m not sure if he works for this additive company but certainly does not offer impartial advice instead of promoting a product.

Tribology and oil design is a science in itself and not one to be played with in live engines that you rely on day in and out.

Take a pat on the back from your samples, whatever you are presently doing is good and stick with it, no need to change! The air/box gash is nonsense for an EGR driven engine!

My advice would be stick with constant data, oil type and intervals and sample before change.

The engine manufacturer I represent recommend sampling from a running engine after the filter at operating temp as the design of modern oil is to suspend particles and retain in the sump, so taking from the sump can result in an actual false reading picking up the crud where it’s supposed to be!

Hence why it’s best to use for trending and to form a base line, which this Blackstone appear to be doing so good on them. So if you start to trend with them they will pick up something wrong (sharp rise in a property) anyone that can base an opinion on a first sample from a used engine is simply “flying a Kite” as they have nothing to base on! During Engine testing we test the new oil (From the drum)which at that point it never meets its ISO standard and we have to flush through 1 micron filters until it passes on the particle counter before it goes in the engine. We than test every hour throughout a test to terns the first 12 hours of its life!

So to put it in perspective unless you know the properties (as tested) of what you put in how can you judge the sample (as in adding additives etc.).

TT82 I admire your interest and care in your engine as a fellow 185 owner (I think) I am also keen to keep on top of mine.

Well I won't be doing anything different initially. My V70 is main dealer serviced so it would be a quite a waste to dump the fresh oil straight away in order to use a different brand. However there will come a come a point when I stop using main dealer servicing, and that will be when, and if, I do choose to try a different brand of oil. Likewise with oil additives.

As you say, I want to keep the engine in tip top condition as I plan on keeping the car for a while, and will be putting some serious miles on it. It would be interesting to see the results for other 185 engines, just to use as a comparison.

[Backhill1]

Mine is due its 144k soon and I'm planning to sample before it goes in ( If I remember).

Ill pm you the results as like I say a base line is what we are looking for.

Reference oil I think it's difficult to get the exact castrol edge oil that meets Volvo spec ( professional possibly) but this is a good oil if its the correct one.

I'm not a fan of castrol products and favour Mobil based on experience of base stocks but lets not kid ourselves a good product.

I'm still main dealer servicing so our results should be similar.

[skyship007]

Originally Posted by Backhill1

Skyship just some comments on your recommendations.

Have you had a PM on exact oil in use as you appear to not know what Oil has been tested and The Castrol Edge data on the chitty could cover many different oils by your own admission on previous posts in relation to quality?

Therefore are you promoting additives as a stock answer? We see this all the time where people think they know more than the manufacturer, we seldom get it wrong as we develop engines with a lubricant standard.

Also how can you recommend additives and flushing without knowing in detail this data? Also how do you conclude varnishing and the elimination??
This is an extremely rare phenomenon in modern diesels (generally associated with petrol engines) how do you conclude this is going on?? I bet you could strip every D5 ever built at 150K in the UK and none would show signs of varnishing. How would this manifest itself?

Please I’m not having a go but I find it dangerous when people are making recommendations without asking all the correct questions and putting owners vehicles / engines at risk with no liability or accountability for their advice.

Volvo do genuinely know what they are doing and if they thought this was the future they would be asking Castrol to add at the refinery.

Perhaps you should register in the traders section more honestly rather than trying to steer people towards certain products with no ramifications for your advice. If you have no allegiance to these products then I apologise for insinuating so but your engine history does not indicate otherwise i.e. @ 1,000,000 miles on original block and pistons.

The UOA results from the Castrol Edge in use shows it does not contain any Moly or Boron additives (Most good oils and Edge TD does). Moly is not essential for low wear rates IF the base oil is a true German standard full synthetic like the top of the range Synthoils, Redline or Amsoil full synthetics. Edge is only a HC synthetic and is in fact not much different to Magnetec in actual contents terms. The fact it does not even contain any Boron compounds for upper cylinder lubrication is one reason why it produces higher Aluminium and Iron figures (The results I got from Edge TD shown below are real bad in comparison with the real McCoy synthetics).

My own advice is the same as that you will get from anyone that knows something about turbo diesels and used oil analysis and that is that at present Shell Helix Ultra will produce better results in value for money terms, partly because it includes Moly and Boron additives and that it is based on GTL technology base stock. Mobil 1 also produce good engine oils, but they are also HC synthetics like Edge (All M1 oils contain Moly and Boron additives).

There is no need to use oil additives unless an engine shows signs of abnormal wear metals or is subject to severe service. The Germans are well ahead in oil technology terms, Liqui Moly are world leaders in oil additives and Ceratec does exactly what they say it does. I've looked at a lot of before and after UOA results and it's true that most oil additives don't work and a few, like drive around flush additives can cause problems. MoS2 Moly additive sometimes works, but although Ceratec is more expensive, it's a classic case of you get what you pay for, as it has 2 active anti wear additives.

The UOA results in question show highish upper cylinder wear metals and it's a standard precaution in such cases to use an idle only flush additive just before an oil & filter change (It will also help Ceratec to deposit the best layer possible). It might not be necessary, but it's a good precaution if you have not fully inspected the head and turbo feed line. No oil works correctly if it can't get to every spot the designer intended, so getting a block real clean is very important if you want to get the best long term results.

The idea that modern engines don't suffer from deposits is nonsense, the only ones that are 100% clean have been run on top quality full synthetics changed at shorter than the max recommended intervals. So if the oil service history is not perfect, it is worth using a top quality idle only flush just before changing oil & filter. Castrol, Amsoil and Liqui Moly all make good flushes.
The only precaution is that an engine that already has oil leaks, might leak faster and require the use of a high mileage oil after flushing, so it's sometimes better to clean a block up with a few short oil changes if it's a dripper. Mobil 1 0/40 or Shell Ultra 5/40 both clean far better than Edge, as M1 has more detergents and the Ultra base stock is a natural solvent. In this particular case I would stick to an x/30, as it will flow faster when hot which might have a slight effect in upper cylinder wear terms, although Edge 0/30 is at the top of the 30 range, so not much different to most x/40 grades.

Volvo did know what they were doing when they originally recommended Castrol Magnetec, BUT that was over 10 years ago and time moves on and the present owners of Volvo are just using Edge because it is cheap HC synthetic that lasts a long time, but it's not the best liquid Gold in town.
I would also point out the the Volvo own label engine oils that their dealers are using in the UK might not be Edge 0/30 or Edge 0/40, although most Volvo dealers in the UK are just using Magnetec 10/40.

The OP is pushing the boundaries with a long oil change interval which can often produce better results (Dirty oil filters are more efficient than clean ones), BUT only if you use a real top quality full synthetic with all the best additives included in the oil, OR added in some cases. Castrol like to spend a lot of money on advertising!

Shell Ultra range:
http://www.shell.com/global/products...ltra-0w30.html

LM Ceratec data sheet:
http://www.liqui-moly.de/liquimoly/m...a%20Tec_EN.pdf

[skyship007]

One thing I forgot to add about why I selected Shell helix Ultra is that it is the same oil as the top of the range Pennzoil Ultra sold in the USA. Shell effectively own Pennzoil as part of their Sopus group of companies.
It is the only oil that can claim to be top dog in both cleanliness (Mobil 1 is no 2) and wear rate figures. Mobil and Castrol might not like that fact, but there is not much they can do about it until they change their base stock.

http://www.pennzoil.com/technology-o...tic-motor-oil/

If you shop around on Fleabay it can be bought for around 30 quid for 5 liters, that might be more than Magnetec, but it is less than Edge.

Engine block cleanliness is difficult to figure out from a UOA (Used oil analysis), although the insolubles figure should decline if an engine is being cleaned up with a series of short oil change intervals, or the use of an idle flush additive. The TBN figure only gives an idea of the amount of active detergents left in the oil, not how well the oil can dissolve baked on varnish deposits.
How clean the block is has a direct impact on the life the turbo bearings, VVT unit or head gasket. It's less important in main bearing wear terms unless it's bad enough to cause a low oil pressure.
Oddly enough the first items to fail on a very old turbo diesel that is well maintained is the head gasket and turbo bearings, which is why the ability of an oil to keep the block clean over long oil change intervals is very important and Ultra has something of a cult following in that respect.