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MTE back in the UK.

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Old Mar 3rd, 2006, 20:33   #21
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Originally Posted by pyaap
Indeed, that is the crux of the matter which I believe Don was trying to re-inforce. Given you have an interest, and do a fair bit of reading around all the various fora about ECU upgrades, but still did not know that RICA employ these methods, I think it is fair to say that there may be other forum members who also do not know what is involved in selected ECU upgrades. For the reasons which you have described, I do wonder whether companies who employ such tuning methods would openly disclose and warn customers about the potential risks involved.
FYI, RICA and ourselves, together with a load of other tuning comanies in the world often employ several methods for reprogramming ECUs. Some ECUs have to be soldered. Some ECUs can be bench flashed. Some ECUs can be programmed via the OBDII port.

We have various tools for reprogramming ECUs, including all those above. So yes we solder ECUs, yes we bech flash ECUs, and yes we flash ECUs via the OBDII port.

For example, for the ME7 car we do not remove the ECU from the car because we flash it through the OBDII port.

However, there are cases where an ME7 ECU would need soldering. For example, if it has been fitted with a protection board by another tuner then it can't be reflashed, therefore the protection board chip has to be removed and replaced with a fresh one, so of course the ECU has to be opened. The fact that we have the facilities to do this safely means that we are far more flexible in what we can achieve in terms of the service we provide. This means that if you have such a device installed in your ECU, then you can't have MTE, but you can have RICA. So by all means carry on making a point of this if you wish.

For those who think soldering is dangerous, ask yourself how on earth the chip was put on the ECU at the factory in the first place - it was soldered !

So, let's stop this nonsense about this being the crux of the matter because it's not. Adam studied electronic engineering and computer science and worked for Lucas Aerospace on engine controllers. So you can rest assured he knows a bit on the subject.

Regards,
Hamish.
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Old Mar 3rd, 2006, 21:20   #22
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"""""""For those who think soldering is dangerous, ask yourself how on earth the chip was put on the ECU at the factory in the first place - it was soldered !"""""""""

I think we guessed that hamish, well i didnt as i though they used pva glue and lolly pop sticks. Soldering is generally safe (ive taken many an ic out) but ultimately i would rather this method wasnt used on my board.

"""""The fact that we have the facilities to do this"""""

you mean you own a soldering iron and a sucker!! - LOL

Out of interest does anyone know what package the eeprom uses?

talking of degree's here's my final year project, it was an automated cruise control system like the new beamers have.

Car built totally from scratch, could be connected to my laptop to download code onto a pic micro processor. ultrasonic range finder, pwm speed controller in theory capable of sinking over 300amps (board tracks wouldnt take that though).

basically, you could set a distance and max speed and it would follow you and not exceed that speed, wanted to put a steering system on it but ran out of time.
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Old Mar 3rd, 2006, 21:37   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hamish
For those who think soldering is dangerous, ask yourself how on earth the chip was put on the ECU at the factory in the first place - it was soldered !

Is that done by hand too?

Is it then the case that the processes involved (soldering etc.) are without risk? If there are risks, are customers briefed on this?
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Old Mar 3rd, 2006, 21:43   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyaap
Is that done by hand too?

Is it then the case that the processes involved (soldering etc.) are without risk? If there are risks, are customers briefed on this?
beat me to it pyaap!!!

Most commercial soldering is done with a bath\wash, and not a monkey with a soldering iron.

If done properly soldering is ok, but its the risk such as damaging the track, overheating the pins on the IC, damaging the board if the IC have to be pryed out, poor solder joints, electro-static discharge that put me off soldering if other options are availiable.
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Old Mar 4th, 2006, 01:52   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyaap
Indeed, that is the crux of the matter which I believe Don was trying to re-inforce. Given you have an interest, and do a fair bit of reading around all the various fora about ECU upgrades, but still did not know that RICA employ these methods, I think it is fair to say that there may be other forum members who also do not know what is involved in selected ECU upgrades. For the reasons which you have described, I do wonder whether companies who employ such tuning methods would openly disclose and warn customers about the potential risks involved.
When it comes to TME vs RICA I think some of you chaps are more than happy to argue about what day of the week it is ;-)

You are correct inasmuch as I have thoroughly researched re-mapping and had done so long before I found this forum. Initially I found companies who specialised in piggy back extra chip sets which were either soldered or plug-in. Some also used mechanical devices but in all cases the intricacies of the workings were the knowledge edge of the tuner and sure they were going to tell the world about how they did it. Some part of their process was obvious and that was if a piggy-back chip set was soldered directly or via a plug-in carrier then the circuit boards had to be accessed and soldered connections made. I chose not to use any of those companies for no other reason than the massive chorus of warnings from two main dealers and the techs at the place I bought the car from.

As for soldering circuit boards etc. ( I cannot believe we are discussing such a ridiculously mundane subject), my comments to Bobcat were generalisations. I did not have the pleasure of studying for an electronics degree but worked hands-on in electronics for 15 years. I replaced more components than I care to remember and providing the correct care was taken with heat dissipating sinks\shunts and precision kit was used then the risk was controlled by the person carrying out the task. The same is true of static discharge protection and all it takes is the correct layout, proper procedures and the problem is zero. I made my living out of design, diagnostics and repair of circuits and circuit boards and had both the kit and training to carry out such work. It would be reasonable to expect that anyone else who's livelihood depended on those skills to achieve a zero failure rate. For the buyer\ end-user why would they need to know of a risk which for them was\is not going to exist. Risk is a factor of probability and if it diminishes to zero it loses the classification of risk.

As there appears to be an attempt to create paranoia about a non existent risk I would challenge those making the claims of risk to find and url claims of ECU failure due to such work. We can all imagine risk bounded only by our imaginations:-)

If of course the concern is that an opened ECU might reveal new solder then it begs the question of who is trying to deceive whom.

One year on from my round trip to Bromsgrove I am still strongly of the opinion that the holistic tuning, fault diagnostics and fault clearing was a wise decision. IMO there is a risk in tuning and a very serious one and that is that a pre-existing fault or condition is made many times worse by someone without the ability to recognise the problem or correct it before serious damage is done. I do not know how far other tuners have moved toward VT's holistic approach but for me it was the only choice and still would be now.
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Old Mar 4th, 2006, 01:59   #26
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ho·lis·tic (h-lstk)
adj.
1. Of or relating to holism.
2.
a. Emphasizing the importance of the whole and the interdependence of its parts.
b. Concerned with wholes rather than analysis or separation into parts


Just for those of you who can only cut and paste like me....

I seem to remember Adam was more than happy to take my money with no checks carried out. Simple case of pull the ECU 3 hrs later put it back check for no warning lights and that'll be £XXX plz.

hmm.....same could be said for Bolts etc etc

But i guess we've all been here before. So enough said

Night all

Iain
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Old Mar 4th, 2006, 02:09   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traduk
When it comes to TME vs RICA I think some of you chaps are more than happy to argue about what day of the week it is ;-)

You are correct inasmuch as I have thoroughly researched re-mapping and had done so long before I found this forum. Initially I found companies who specialised in piggy back extra chip sets which were either soldered or plug-in. Some also used mechanical devices but in all cases the intricacies of the workings were the knowledge edge of the tuner and sure they were going to tell the world about how they did it. Some part of their process was obvious and that was if a piggy-back chip set was soldered directly or via a plug-in carrier then the circuit boards had to be accessed and soldered connections made. I chose not to use any of those companies for no other reason than the massive chorus of warnings from two main dealers and the techs at the place I bought the car from.

As for soldering circuit boards etc. ( I cannot believe we are discussing such a ridiculously mundane subject), my comments to Bobcat were generalisations. I did not have the pleasure of studying for an electronics degree but worked hands-on in electronics for 15 years. I replaced more components than I care to remember and providing the correct care was taken with heat dissipating sinks\shunts and precision kit was used then the risk was controlled by the person carrying out the task. The same is true of static discharge protection and all it takes is the correct layout, proper procedures and the problem is zero. I made my living out of design, diagnostics and repair of circuits and circuit boards and had both the kit and training to carry out such work. It would be reasonable to expect that anyone else who's livelihood depended on those skills to achieve a zero failure rate. For the buyer\ end-user why would they need to know of a risk which for them was\is not going to exist. Risk is a factor of probability and if it diminishes to zero it loses the classification of risk.

As there appears to be an attempt to create paranoia about a non existent risk I would challenge those making the claims of risk to find and url claims of ECU failure due to such work. We can all imagine risk bounded only by our imaginations:-)

If of course the concern is that an opened ECU might reveal new solder then it begs the question of who is trying to deceive whom.

One year on from my round trip to Bromsgrove I am still strongly of the opinion that the holistic tuning, fault diagnostics and fault clearing was a wise decision. IMO there is a risk in tuning and a very serious one and that is that a pre-existing fault or condition is made many times worse by someone without the ability to recognise the problem or correct it before serious damage is done. I do not know how far other tuners have moved toward VT's holistic approach but for me it was the only choice and still would be now.
just to clarify, this is merley a technical discussion on the process of soldering and some of the risks involved. we still dont know if rica actually solder in a new eeprom on the older cars as std proceedure, so how can we be having a go at anyone, as im aware they dont solder.

all "im" saying is that i would rather my ecu wasnt soldered if the choice is availiable thats all.

regarding issues of soldering causing problem, best to do a search on volvospeed as ive read cases of chips needing to be redone, upsolute is a popular chip and it is a solder one - but that is most likely to poor installation.
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Old Mar 4th, 2006, 05:10   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hamish
For those who think soldering is dangerous, ask yourself how on earth the chip was put on the ECU at the factory in the first place - it was soldered !
Regards,
Hamish.
By a machine not a soldertech is the point. Hand soldered ECU's can get buggered and it does happen. To deny it is just BS. My friend in Canada had to get New ECU via the Volvo dealer which cost him over $1000US = 569.605 GBP. So the risk here is if the tuner screws up your ecu while it has been taken apart, then who foots the $1000US or 569.605 GBP bill? Those are the real risks. Sooner or later people make mistakes, it's statistical. That should all be talked about before and not after the fact when your having your ECU tuned. If this happened to a customer of yours how would you address the issue?

Quote:
Originally Posted by hamish
So, let's stop this nonsense about this being the crux of the matter because it's not. Adam studied electronic engineering and computer science and worked for Lucas Aerospace on engine controllers. So you can rest assured he knows a bit on the subject.
Regards,
Hamish.
I had an Austin Healy full of Lucas parts (a division of Lucas Aerospace) and it spent all of it's time in the shop with electrical problems. Going out on the weekends was always an adventure because you never knew if you had enough parts or the right parts to fix it to get back home. It was a fun car but I don't think my friends liked getting stranded very much. My Physicist friend affectionately and often quoted: "Lucas the company who invented Darkness"

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Old Mar 4th, 2006, 05:40   #29
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I don't want to get too involved hear, as I'm sure you guys all know what you are talking about, but can you not use a heat sink while soldering near vital components on the circuit card? i.e. chips etc. Just a thought!

Just so you know, I'm not just some weekend mechanic with a few idea's. I WISH I was a weekend mechanic, that would mean my week would be much easier!
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Old Mar 4th, 2006, 10:03   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Traduk
When it comes to TME vs RICA I think some of you chaps are more than happy to argue about what day of the week it is ;-)

You are correct inasmuch as I have thoroughly researched re-mapping and had done so long before I found this forum. Initially I found companies who specialised in piggy back extra chip sets which were either soldered or plug-in. Some also used mechanical devices but in all cases the intricacies of the workings were the knowledge edge of the tuner and sure they were going to tell the world about how they did it. Some part of their process was obvious and that was if a piggy-back chip set was soldered directly or via a plug-in carrier then the circuit boards had to be accessed and soldered connections made. I chose not to use any of those companies for no other reason than the massive chorus of warnings from two main dealers and the techs at the place I bought the car from.

As for soldering circuit boards etc. ( I cannot believe we are discussing such a ridiculously mundane subject), my comments to Bobcat were generalisations. I did not have the pleasure of studying for an electronics degree but worked hands-on in electronics for 15 years. I replaced more components than I care to remember and providing the correct care was taken with heat dissipating sinks\shunts and precision kit was used then the risk was controlled by the person carrying out the task. The same is true of static discharge protection and all it takes is the correct layout, proper procedures and the problem is zero. I made my living out of design, diagnostics and repair of circuits and circuit boards and had both the kit and training to carry out such work. It would be reasonable to expect that anyone else who's livelihood depended on those skills to achieve a zero failure rate. For the buyer\ end-user why would they need to know of a risk which for them was\is not going to exist. Risk is a factor of probability and if it diminishes to zero it loses the classification of risk.

As there appears to be an attempt to create paranoia about a non existent risk I would challenge those making the claims of risk to find and url claims of ECU failure due to such work. We can all imagine risk bounded only by our imaginations:-)

If of course the concern is that an opened ECU might reveal new solder then it begs the question of who is trying to deceive whom.

One year on from my round trip to Bromsgrove I am still strongly of the opinion that the holistic tuning, fault diagnostics and fault clearing was a wise decision. IMO there is a risk in tuning and a very serious one and that is that a pre-existing fault or condition is made many times worse by someone without the ability to recognise the problem or correct it before serious damage is done. I do not know how far other tuners have moved toward VT's holistic approach but for me it was the only choice and still would be now.

Hi,
You must be mad! you did some research and you had a rica upgrade and you even let Volvotuning do the work! how on earth did you come to that conclusion!
Oh yes...... you did some research and realised they were pretty good.
Paul.
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