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What's the problem with electric cars?

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Old Feb 9th, 2024, 18:46   #851
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Big cars = Bigger profits, small cars = marginal profits.

Mercedes don't put the latest tech in an A class and roll it up through to the S class, racing technology doesn't start in go-karts and make it's way up to F1.

Given auto makers have been told they have to forget most of what they have known for the last ten or more decades and pretty much learn again combined with the reported loss each vehicle sold represents, it'll be a while before small cars, genuinely small cars, exist again.
This shift is costing manufacturers billions, some won't make it.

Park a FIAT 500 from the 1950s next to a new one and talk about small city cars.
Which is a problem for everyone, cos if no-one but fleets are buying them because private buyers can't stomach the initial purchase price / insurance costs / poor residuals then the market will, eventually, disappear.
Plus not everyone wants the latest tech, battery cars have been here for a long time, not everyone wants radar, self driving, Bose stereo or heated steering wheels, what they want is personal transport, end of.
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Old Feb 9th, 2024, 19:22   #852
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That personal transport has to have 7+ airbags, crash avoidance tech etc etc to meet regulations and get 5 star NCAP ratings. Something as simple as the omission of lane keep assist can knock 2+ stars off.

Self driving is coming as a standard so other cars can predict how a car will react.

Some countries take a commonsense approach and allow cars which still meet the standards they were built to on the roads until they no longer meet those standards then a newer, cleaner vehicle replaces it. Other countries choose to ban and therefore scrap vehicles which amounts to environmental vandalism. Most cars are done at 15-20 years, and have consumed huge amounts of energy in their creation,. How does effectively banning an eight year old diesel from driving on a road forcing the owner to replace it with possibly an older petrol or a 1970s MG with a 1950s tech V8 engine improve the environment ? It's the economics of madmen. Of course, you can pay a "charge" and everything is OK.

There's a word for it, Wreckonomics. Single out a bogeyman and double down on claims of victory while ignoring the casualties along the way.
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Old Feb 10th, 2024, 18:32   #853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMcL View Post
Big cars = Bigger profits, small cars = marginal profits.

Mercedes don't put the latest tech in an A class and roll it up through to the S class, racing technology doesn't start in go-karts and make it's way up to F1.

Given auto makers have been told they have to forget most of what they have known for the last ten or more decades and pretty much learn again combined with the reported loss each vehicle sold represents, it'll be a while before small cars, genuinely small cars, exist again.
This shift is costing manufacturers billions, some won't make it.

Park a FIAT 500 from the 1950s next to a new one and talk about small city cars.
Smaller cars = better for the environment, which is what this green agenda is all about, right? Reducing CO2 is the ultimate aim. That's not going to happen if manufacturer's continue to build cars that weigh nearly 3tonnes and are like a barge.

If smaller EV's were more affordable, people may actually buy them. Profits may be marginal, but if more are sold, that would balance out and create a new niche market which doesn't really exist (small EV's).

Smaller EV's can't be loaded with luxury, that's obvious. However, functionality is being missed... a relatively simple car with some luxuries to get them where they need to go would suffice. It doesn't have to have big LED screens, voice operation and all the other modern gizmo's that luxury cars do. Just small and functional would be fine. There's very few affordable small EV's (new to the market) that offer that right now... maybe the Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe from a used perspective, but new? Very little.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GMcL View Post
That personal transport has to have 7+ airbags, crash avoidance tech etc etc to meet regulations and get 5 star NCAP ratings. Something as simple as the omission of lane keep assist can knock 2+ stars off.

Self driving is coming as a standard so other cars can predict how a car will react.

Some countries take a commonsense approach and allow cars which still meet the standards they were built to on the roads until they no longer meet those standards then a newer, cleaner vehicle replaces it. Other countries choose to ban and therefore scrap vehicles which amounts to environmental vandalism. Most cars are done at 15-20 years, and have consumed huge amounts of energy in their creation,. How does effectively banning an eight year old diesel from driving on a road forcing the owner to replace it with possibly an older petrol or a 1970s MG with a 1950s tech V8 engine improve the environment ? It's the economics of madmen. Of course, you can pay a "charge" and everything is OK.

There's a word for it, Wreckonomics. Single out a bogeyman and double down on claims of victory while ignoring the casualties along the way.
There's plenty of cars on the road that don't have 5 star NCAP safety ratings and have been for many years. Every new car that comes out of the factory doesn't have to get the highest score in NCAP ratings. Its a bonus if they do, but realistically, it doesn't always happen.
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Old Feb 10th, 2024, 18:45   #854
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take a look at the chinese MGs crash tests they dont fair very well ...im sticking with my old volvos as long as i can.
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Old Feb 11th, 2024, 13:03   #855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev0607 View Post
Smaller cars = better for the environment, which is what this green agenda is all about, right? Reducing CO2 is the ultimate aim. That's not going to happen if manufacturer's continue to build cars that weigh nearly 3tonnes and are like a barge.

If smaller EV's were more affordable, people may actually buy them. Profits may be marginal, but if more are sold, that would balance out and create a new niche market which doesn't really exist (small EV's).

Smaller EV's can't be loaded with luxury, that's obvious. However, functionality is being missed... a relatively simple car with some luxuries to get them where they need to go would suffice. It doesn't have to have big LED screens, voice operation and all the other modern gizmo's that luxury cars do. Just small and functional would be fine. There's very few affordable small EV's (new to the market) that offer that right now... maybe the Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe from a used perspective, but new? Very little.



There's plenty of cars on the road that don't have 5 star NCAP safety ratings and have been for many years. Every new car that comes out of the factory doesn't have to get the highest score in NCAP ratings. Its a bonus if they do, but realistically, it doesn't always happen.
The model Big = Big profits; Small = Marginal profits was for ICE vehicles. The current model for EV is Big cars = $$$$$ loss, small cars = $$$$$+ loss. The cost to build a car is not linear line. Switching from an ICE to EV is not a case of just taking the engine, gearbox and fuel tank out and dropping a washing machine motor and battery in. There's a lot more to it than that which is why manufacturers are spending billions, not because they feel like blowing that money, it is because they have to.

Small cars will come once the battery density tech, motor efficiency is worked out and packaging is rethought. I still think gearboxes will reappear as part of optimisation with electric motors. Not seven, eight, nine or ten speed like we see today, two or three speed for urban, A road and high speed would be a start.
Currently, most manufacturers are on their first or second iteration, it will take a few more iterations to get the scaling right. The XC30 is the smallest but it is still not 340 small.

If there were a standard cost/kWh for energy regardless of source, that is kind of transparency required to clean up. Electric remains at around 30p/kWh, petrol would then cost around GBP2.61/litre and diesel GBP3.04/litre.
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Old Feb 11th, 2024, 14:36   #856
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This sums up where I am at now. I will not buy anyother car until we see what the landscape looks like, there are too many unknowns:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZysvgm2_Aw[/YOUTUBE]
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Old Feb 11th, 2024, 23:17   #857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GMcL View Post
This sums up where I am at now. I will not buy anyother car until we see what the landscape looks like, there are too many unknowns:

[YOUTUBE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nZysvgm2_Aw[/YOUTUBE]
This is what happens when the government get a bee in their bonnet about something. They throw the buzz phrases about like Net Zero etc etc without putting much thought into the side effects of their actions. Look at the diesel car debacle and here we are again. Expensive EVs, infrastructure struggling to keep pace with demand etc etc. The tech is far from perfect and its the end user who is left to deal with the consequences. Now times are tough people will favor the cheaper option.
I have a self charging hybrid which works well. I looked at the EX30 and its just not idea for my location and lifestyle especially given the infrastructure at this moment in time. Im keeping an eye on the future of EV, Hydrogen etc but currently Im staying with something that has an ICE in it.
The chap in the vid makes a lot of sense.

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Old Feb 12th, 2024, 10:24   #858
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Harry does have many good points, and from an EV owner i agree with most of them. It still doesnt put me off as the EV has further benefits with my family than most other cars as it has eliminated all my daughters travel sickness.

However, as i have mentioned on here previously, the development with batteries is progressing with multiple different technoigies, which will offer 500 mile range and super fast charge time which will put it on par with all ICE cars currently, and this wouldnt have been pushed to be generated if there wasnt a demand for it. This does make older technology (LioN batteries) obsolete, however i am sure there would be a way to retrofit the battery packs if required. This would be easier than retrofitting ICE cars with battery tech.

The main reasons the range disappears during the colder months is when you dont "pre-condition" the battery which is easy enough to schedule from the app for the cars, and also the power demand from heating technology. think of everything in your house that heats up something. it is always the most power consuming item. Heat pumps are being introduced to assist with this which is improving the loss, but its still not perfect.

The argument with Bigger cars isnt down to EVs though, its all car makers. Take Volvo for example. Their smallest car in the range is the XC30 which isnt really a "Small" car. Yes weight is higher in an electric car, but the size not so much. And people dont really want small cars anymore. When i speak to people who commute to work in Range rovers, Qaashqais, X5s etc by themselves, they say they like the driving position and the "invincibleness" these vehicles give the owner. There are still plenty of small EV cars (Honda E, Mini, Fiat 500, Zoe, Leaf etc) but most people dont want a small car, or if they do its normally a second cheaper car so they dont want to pay out 30k for it.
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Old Feb 12th, 2024, 16:23   #859
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Agree, EVs have their place and if, as in my case, you can live with an EV it should not be discounted. We have one my wife primarily uses though I occasionally borrow it for some journeys. The drivetrain is smooth and quiet though I'm no fan of SUVs, crosswinds for four months of the year make it a less than pleasurable experience being buffeted around.

Pre-conditioning only works for the initial journey. Drive to work, park in the car park and the car is stone cold for the return journey. Also, pre-conditioning may work better in the UK which has a temperate climate, not really cold in winter - 0C does not count as really cold - and not too hot in summer, I've seen range really drop off below -9C as it does when things get pretty warm above 35C.

Norway is frequently held up as the poster boy of EV in Europe. What is not mentioned is the tax system penalises anyone buying a fossil fueled vehicle over electric, that has been a big incentive towards the drive to EV in that country, plus they have a pretty clean grid supply compared with say Poland.
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Old Feb 12th, 2024, 16:26   #860
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Harry does have many good points, and from an EV owner i agree with most of them. It still doesnt put me off as the EV has further benefits with my family than most other cars as it has eliminated all my daughters travel sickness.

However, as i have mentioned on here previously, the development with batteries is progressing with multiple different technoigies, which will offer 500 mile range and super fast charge time which will put it on par with all ICE cars currently, and this wouldnt have been pushed to be generated if there wasnt a demand for it. This does make older technology (LioN batteries) obsolete, however i am sure there would be a way to retrofit the battery packs if required. This would be easier than retrofitting ICE cars with battery tech.

The main reasons the range disappears during the colder months is when you dont "pre-condition" the battery which is easy enough to schedule from the app for the cars, and also the power demand from heating technology. think of everything in your house that heats up something. it is always the most power consuming item. Heat pumps are being introduced to assist with this which is improving the loss, but its still not perfect.

The argument with Bigger cars isnt down to EVs though, its all car makers. Take Volvo for example. Their smallest car in the range is the XC30 which isnt really a "Small" car. Yes weight is higher in an electric car, but the size not so much. And people dont really want small cars anymore. When i speak to people who commute to work in Range rovers, Qaashqais, X5s etc by themselves, they say they like the driving position and the "invincibleness" these vehicles give the owner. There are still plenty of small EV cars (Honda E, Mini, Fiat 500, Zoe, Leaf etc) but most people dont want a small car, or if they do its normally a second cheaper car so they dont want to pay out 30k for it.
I don't think the demand is as high as it once was. EV sales are actually going down, residual values are falling and many manufacturer's are pulling away from producing EV's or investing in the tech. I've also heard numerous EV owners saying they're going back to ICE vehicles because of the poor charging systems here. I know that may only be proportionate, as I'm sure there's lots that don't go on the radio to tell their story, but I've heard plenty in recent months.
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