Anti-diesel hysteria - should I go for T8 instead?

[filomena]

I would go for petrol, or hybrid.

- the future of diesel is very uncertain in Europe, and certainly in the area of your focus (Germany)
- I would go for T8 if it makes financially sense - as you say it seems to be the case, over the 5-yr period you mention
- I would not be worried about batteries and resale. I guess those 5 yrs they should easily last. Once you sell the car, maybe the new owner will need/want to replace batteries, but can leave it as it is and drive with a T6. The hybrid technology will still be there, so it will be upon the new owner to decide whether and when to replace batteries.
- as regards AWD - do you have/use/need it now? Will T6 AWD bring so much added value (according to one of the posts above) to you to convince you not to go for T8?

[gaby]

Originally Posted by Haldex

Most people buying SUVs (or AWD vehicles in general, for that matter..) will never need AWD and would do just fine with FWD as well. And I’d say a twin-engine AWD should do much better than a 2WD vehicle. For most people- twin engine or mechanical AWD- shouldn’t be a decisive factor.

It's winter and it snows. The car stands still, the boot is fully loaded. After a few meters,
the road goes uphill quite steep, a curve follows soon. I have seen it happen many times
that FWD cars didn't even got going, let alone taking the curve. This is a situation
where FWD doesn't work because there is not enough downpressure on the front wheels.
Sometimes, a few people sat on the bonnet, some drove their car uphill backwards.
But I have also seen FWD cars sliding down, with a trailer attached...

[Whippy]

Neither is it the right car for a family on a budget! People who blythly talk about spending £60k on a new car as if it didn't matter need only look across the channel to see what happens when politicians decide that the ordinary guy simply don't matter, make way for our eco policy etc. They have police snipers on rooftops now, just in case.

[filomena]

Originally Posted by Haldex

It’s mostly been answered by fellow forumers but here’s my part too.

When in Pure mode, T8s are 87hp, 2.2-ton RWD cars. There’s declared “reactive” AWD (ICE kicking in, powering the front wheels..) but as you can imagine this is far from instantaneous and if anything- causes the car to behave unpredictably.

When in Hybrid- front wheels are driven with ICE powering on/off as required, again with declared reactive AWD - rear axle kicking in should slip be detected.. In theory- this seems like it should work- in practice- it’s far from a seamless, truly reactive AWD. There’s numerous topics on swedespeed on this subject- generally people from northern states and Canada are disappointed whereas Californians think of it as being as good as any AWD

So the solution is AWD mode- in which case your ICE runs constantly- resulting in a sharp decline in mpg, and kind of defeating the purpose of owning a PHEV- but at least AWD works as declared. This one has some limitations though. First- the amount of torque available in the rear will be limited by the battery charge level- so in reality, one will never get the declared 240nm (available only when fully charged..). Constantly charging the battery in AWD mode, ICE will not have the full torque available to power the front wheels either.

And lastly- to prevent overheating of the ERAD, rear axle drive is completely deactivated at speeds over 120km/h. So when on highway- T8 becomes FWD- so no torque vectoring, no reactive AWD.

All things equal (what Deman77 said- good tires are always a key factor, ofcourse..) “mechanical” AWD will outperform the twin-engine AWD.

@Deman77: the only fake part of the mechanical AWD on our cars is “fake” dif lock- this is done with brake application, as you said- but even LR has given up on true dif locks.. everything else is as “real” as it gets.

All what you write is very interesting and useful. I just do not think that the negatives you mention would be a buy-stopper for an average Joe. Most people buying XC90 buy it for roads, not offroad. Even in Canada, I do not imagine sbdy needing to drive full speed on AWD (I am doubtful it is possible to drive 120km/h AWD anyway), and people driving 120km/h on snow and relying on AWD must be crazy - even in a Volvo.

So I would disregard the negative of not having full 240nm. Most people need it to pull off, or get driving on snowy/slippery roads at low speeds (50-60km/h ?).

[MaDProFF]

Originally Posted by gaby

It's winter and it snows. The car stands still, the boot is fully loaded. After a few meters,
the road goes uphill quite steep, a curve follows soon. I have seen it happen many times
that FWD cars didn't even got going, let alone taking the curve. This is a situation
where FWD doesn't work because there is not enough downpressure on the front wheels.
Sometimes, a few people sat on the bonnet, some drove their car uphill backwards.
But I have also seen FWD cars sliding down, with a trailer attached...

Put Winter tyres on that FWD and a completely different picture.
The reason you are seeing any car slide down is because of the weight is higher than the grip would allow between the icy road surface and tyre, once again put winter tyres on that car and it would not happen.

[Haldex]

Originally Posted by filomena

All what you write is very interesting and useful. I just do not think that the negatives you mention would be a buy-stopper for an average Joe. Most people buying XC90 buy it for roads, not offroad. Even in Canada, I do not imagine sbdy needing to drive full speed on AWD (I am doubtful it is possible to drive 120km/h AWD anyway), and people driving 120km/h on snow and relying on AWD must be crazy - even in a Volvo.

So I would disregard the negative of not having full 240nm. Most people need it to pull off, or get driving on snowy/slippery roads at low speeds (50-60km/h ?).

Absolutely nothing negative- as I said myself- AWD or not- for most people it will not be a buy stopper.

You should understand that AWD is not something used just to pull you out of a slippery spot or when venturing offroad. The AWD system found on ICE-powered Volvos (Gen 5 Haldex by Borg Warner) is permanently active- from 0km/h up to the vehicle's maximum speed. Under normal conditions torque is mostly sent to the front (95:5%) but system monitors steering angle, throttle position, engine torque, engine RPM, individual wheel speeds, yaw and other sensors. These feed the ABS/ASR and the Haldex control unit to jointly vector torque to the wheels in proportion to where the driver is directing travel.



This happens even in dry road conditions- to ensure maximum grip in corners, neutral driving characteristics and overall stability of the vehicle.

Yes, your "average Joe" cares more about B&W audio than vehicle stability- but that doesn't mean that AWD is as important or as useful as that beautiful crystal gear shifter.

[Duri13]

Originally Posted by filomena

I would go for petrol, or hybrid.

- I would go for T8 if it makes financially sense - as you say it seems to be the case, over the 5-yr period you mention

T6 is 5000EUR cheaper but it will cost me about 2500EUR more on fuel every year so I reckon it will take 2 years to get even and then it all goes towards T8. Therefore it does not make much financial sense for me to go for T6, although having petrol is basically hassle free compared to hybrid, when you have to think about charging and developing different driving habits to preserve batteries, etc...

Originally Posted by filomena

- as regards AWD - do you have/use/need it now? Will T6 AWD bring so much added value (according to one of the posts above) to you to convince you not to go for T8?

My current XC60 is FWD and in 3 winters it happened only twice when I felt that having AWD would be useful but both times I managed without much problems even with FWD. But still, buying a new car now and going skiing every winter, I want to have a reliable AWD (whatever it means).

[MaDProFF]

@Duri I assume you have driven a T8? as a test drive? Driving in Pure mode, is sublime, the silence with no road noise just gliding along, having the music not too loud but can hear everything, talking to people that you can actually hear speaking.

Depending on the driver you are, if you like technology, like a challenge? Managing battery usage is like a game, I find it quite satisfying to arrive home after every journey with just enough battery left to not start the engine, what ever the length of journey just completed. You have to get into a routine, plugging it in, making sure the scheduler on the app is set right if you need to use the app.

Regarding your post though and considering the day to day journeys which although might be 50% of you yearly mileage, it is actually probably around 80% of the time spent in the car, it is a tough call, as a T8 will benefit you, but not to say other choices will not.

Using the car on a day to day basis for me personally is a challenge that I enjoy, and so far even after 6 months I am not bored of it, although most of it becomes 2nd nature, especially on repetitive journeys.

I can understand people who have no interest is this, but if you do, it is surprising how it makes a difference in MPG, and when and where you can use the battery alone. Even driving in Hold, the car is generally pretty economical, as it can glide for ages with no engine running, you pull away using the battery, but it is all about throttle control, and Regen to slow you down.

For me who likes Performance cars, who has had well above average performance cars since I was 17, I wanted the best of all worlds the T8 is just that for an SUV that when I want on my journeys get a great fuel return that is oddly important to me when having to poke up with traffic, and when the time is right to have fun, or over take lorries at an insane acceleration rate that makes me smile every time.

Let us know which way you went

[gaby]

Originally Posted by MaDProFF

Put Winter tyres on that FWD and a completely different picture.

Not in the situation I described since the front (traction) wheels don't have enough grip
because there is too little downpressure on the front. Not good for grip, bad for steering.

[MaDProFF]

Originally Posted by gaby

Not in the situation I described since the front (traction) wheels don't have enough grip
because there is too little downpressure on the front. Not good for grip, bad for steering.

Then you do not know how winter tyres work