240 General: New (to me) 1980 Volvo 244

[john.wigley]

Yes, indeed. Standards, along with expectations, have definitely changed dramatically in the last half-century or so. Tighter manufacturing tolerances, combined with improved lubricants, have resulted in vastly increased economy, performance and reliability from ever smaller engines, but at the expense of greater mechanical complexity and sophistication.

When I was running 1950's cars in the '60s, the need for a 'top' overhaul was not uncommon every 10 thousand miles, with a full one becoming necessary at 30. These were relatively simple affairs, but I would not want to do that on a 240 Alan, much less on a modern performance car such as your Porsche.

Take the Fiat 500 that I spoke of earlier for example, little bigger than a motorcycle unit, it was what I called a 'kitchen table' engine - one that you could take out, strip down and rebuild - on the kitchen table, if necessary!

Regards, John.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

It's a head off job to change the rings Alan as the pistons have to go out through the top of the block then back in the same way. You can renew the big ends by removing the sump and possibly the mains as well, however i'd suggest if you were going to those lengths buying a glaze buster, removing the engine and doing a full strip down and rebuild, possibly with oversize rings and/or a rebore with possibly new pistons.

That said, do you add 0.5L of ATF-U when you do the oil changes then top up with 10W40 oil after? That will help free sticky piston rings, revive the oil seals, clean sticky valves and several other benefits. I use it in both of mine, in the Rover it has the added benefit of keeping the hydraulic lifters clean and free to function as Honda intended so rarely if ever get the "Honda clatter" soon after start up.
The emissions have generally improved year-on-year doing this and both cars are below 100ppm HC on the MoT, about 80-90 for both but can't remember the exact figures just now.

Just remembered - the MoT on my 760 after i tweaked the mixture down a little after it had already passed :



As you can see, 95ppm HC, not bad for a 33 year old car with 228k on the clock!

Yes, thank you Dave, I’d realised the pistons would have to come up through the block with the head off of course. Perhaps I’d forgotten to mention that? Anyway, pulling the head off only takes half an hour on a nice, simple B21a - and the sump doesn’t look all that difficult to get off now I’ve fixed the engine mounts.
At the moment the job doesn’t need doing (if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it) but I’m mindful that the motor is 40 years old, so it might one day. If that day ever comes it will be a judgement call between just changing the rings and big ends - and pulling the motor out (now I have a good hoist that would probably only take a couple of hours) and having the whole thing rebuilt,
I use 20W50 mineral oil, I don’t mix ATF in it - the whole point being using a heavier grade oil on an older motor (and that seems to work absolutely perfectly). What I do though is take the plugs out every few months (a couple at a time) and give the cylinders 4-5 squirts of ATF (making sure that cylinders are at about 90/270 degree positions) - and leave it a couple of days before starting. That seems to be keeping the rings in good order.
Alan

[Othen]

Originally Posted by john.wigley

Yes, indeed. Standards, along with expectations, have definitely changed dramatically in the last half-century or so. Tighter manufacturing tolerances, combined with improved lubricants, have resulted in vastly increased economy, performance and reliability from ever smaller engines, but at the expense of greater mechanical complexity and sophistication.

When I was running 1950's cars in the '60s, the need for a 'top' overhaul was not uncommon every 10 thousand miles, with a full one becoming necessary at 30. These were relatively simple affairs, but I would not want to do that on a 240 Alan, much less on a modern performance car such as your Porsche.

Take the Fiat 500 that I spoke of earlier for example, little bigger than a motorcycle unit, it was what I called a 'kitchen table' engine - one that you could take out, strip down and rebuild - on the kitchen table, if necessary!

Regards, John.

Absolutely John, things have come a long way, but machines are much harder to fix if they go wrong.
You may recall, I’m much more of a bike guy than a car chap - top end overhauls were very common indeed with bikes - particularly when we used to ride air cooled 2 strokes. Rings on performance 2 strokes such as MX bikes only lasted 20 hours run, but they were very cheap and could be changed in half an hour or less.
As I just wrote to Dave, the RB doesn’t need any ring work at the moment (and had a rebuilt cylinder head last year that I bought for only £99), but I’m mindful that the motor is 40 years old and it may need some work one day. I wouldn’t be too worried about putting in new rings and big ends - there is so much room around the engine I think that would probably be a one day job without taking it out of the car. Anyway: if it ain’t broke don’t fix it Alan!
I certainly would not attempt that job on my flat 6 double DOHC Porsche!
:-)

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

Yes, thank you Dave, I’d realised the pistons would have to come up through the block with the head off of course. Perhaps I’d forgotten to mention that? Anyway, pulling the head off only takes half an hour on a nice, simple B21a - and the sump doesn’t look all that difficult to get off now I’ve fixed the engine mounts.
At the moment the job doesn’t need doing (if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it) but I’m mindful that the motor is 40 years old, so it might one day. If that day ever comes it will be a judgement call between just changing the rings and big ends - and pulling the motor out (now I have a good hoist that would probably only take a couple of hours) and having the whole thing rebuilt,
I use 20W50 mineral oil, I don’t mix ATF in it - the whole point being using a heavier grade oil on an older motor (and that seems to work absolutely perfectly). What I do though is take the plugs out every few months (a couple at a time) and give the cylinders 4-5 squirts of ATF (making sure that cylinders are at about 90/270 degree positions) - and leave it a couple of days before starting. That seems to be keeping the rings in good order.
Alan

I believe there are some engines wher the pistons can come out from underneath Alan, can't bring any to mind just now though.

I totally agree on the if it ain't broke don't fix it approach and had forgotten you'd switched to 20W50 mineral oil. You could if you wished still add the ATF to the oil to give a more diluted but longer cleaning effect and also give the seals the benefit of the "Seal-Swell" in the ATF to revive them while helping keep the engine clean. The ATF-U is 32 viscosity so is almost bang in the middle of 20W50 and only being about 10% by volume, won't effect the overall viscosity of the oil but should have many benefits.
Knowing you change your oil fairly regularly, the main benefit of a synthetic or semi-synthetic oil will largley be wasted, that of extended service life of the oil. If the 20W50 works better for you than the 10W40 then keep using it!

[360beast]

You're probably losing some oil out of the rear crank seal Alan, unless it has had the gearbox off for some reason in the last 40 years it might even be the original one!

[john.wigley]

Originally Posted by 360beast

You're probably losing some oil out of the rear crank seal Alan, unless it has had the gearbox off for some reason in the last 40 years it might even be the original one!

Mmmm ... There is a big difference between between 'using' and 'loosing' oil. While a worn engine can do both, most engines made up until around 1980 were incontinent to a greater or lesser extent. It was also a widely held belief that an engine should use some oil to show that it was doing it's job.

Regards, John.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by 360beast

You're probably losing some oil out of the rear crank seal Alan, unless it has had the gearbox off for some reason in the last 40 years it might even be the original one!

Good morn,
When I first got the car I suspected so as there was often oil around that area, but the problem turned out to be the spacer between the block and the fuel pump. Someone has over-tightened it (years ago I should think) and split the nylon. It was a trivial job to swap the spacer for a new part (from a Volvo marine dealer - Volvo car dealers were useless).
The oil had been dripping down the left side of the motor and so looked like it was coming from the rear seal. As soon as I fixed the spacer that dried up immediately - now there are no longer any rainbows under the car when it rains.
I think the chances are the motor and gearbox have never been split - so it probably does still have aa the original 40 year old crank seal :-)

[Othen]

Originally Posted by john.wigley

Mmmm ... There is a big difference between between 'using' and 'loosing' oil. While a worn engine can do both, most engines made up until around 1980 were incontinent to a greater or lesser extent. It was also a widely held belief that an engine should use some oil to show that it was doing it's job.

Regards, John.

See above regarding the rear seal John. I'm very confident the motor is not losing any oil (as my clean driveway proves).

I think you are right about a little oil use being considered healthy back in the day (and I suppose there is something to be said for the upper rings receiving a little lubrication - but not the unburnt motor oil making its way into the environment).

I have read on the BRISKODA website that certain VAG motors regularly consume their very expensive synthetic oil at much the same rate as does the RB, and that the dealers consider this to be normal (well they would ..). Fortunately that has never afflicted my Skoda Superb (the VAG diesel engines are apparently not prone to using oil).

:-)

[Othen]

I knew those winter tyres would come in handy!



:-)

[Laird Scooby]

Been trying to think of a "David Attenbrough-esque" commentary to add but the brain cell isn't working. Something along the lines of a Volvo in its natural habitat...........