Should I get my car Rica'd?

[don kalmar union]

Good morning Simon,

In answer to your question of me about achievable results with your car, it is my experience that you will not see an honest figure in excess of 275 bhp or so with your car. This alone is a very significant gain over your basic figure.

The problem lies with the very small earlier Mitsubishi TDO 4 familly turbos which will not sustain high boost pressures at higher revs.

You can remedy this in part by fitting a larger turbo from a later model, but you can then be close to the limit with your weaker rods that were upgraded with the 850R and subsequant S/V/C vehicles. Special downpipes with very efficient cats and free flow exhausts from there back will also help, but with these additional items you will still not see a great deal more on the very earliest cars, again with the caveat that they should be in tip top order.

Separate from my own experiences are the results shown at third party rolling road sessions organised by this and other clubs where results from Superchip, TME, Rica and Dastec/Unichip systems have all been within just a few bhp of one another.

Don.Norchi.

www.kalmar-union.com

TME engineered software UK distributor.

[sholtby]

Hello Don,

I have decided to try a Rica upgrade because of the favourable comments I have read on this and other sites. The impression I get from you and others is that a MBC doesnt provide any significand power gains but my 'butt dyno' says different. It wouldnt surprise me if I was getting about 260 bhp with it but I have no proof of this. I hope you are correct in saying that I will notice a significant gain with yours or any of the other chips you mentioned. If Adam is true to his word I should get a full refund if this isnt the case.
You mention that all the chips produced similar bhp during a RR session you held but I have read other threads saying that Rica was better. Its difficult to know whats best when you are inexperienced as I am. The cost of your chip is a lot less than Rica which is a big plus. We really need to get some more head to head tests done to validate the claims of the different manufacturers.
If I can acheive about 300 bhp from my car I'll be well pleased and avoid any further rod bending upgrades. But as I've said power is addictive. The little 15g turbo is certainly going to be revving its brains out to produce Ricas claimed figures.
Thanks for your comments.

Simon

[sholtby]

Adam,

I'll send you an email confirming those details.

Simon

[foggyjames]

Of course an MBC will provide a significant power gain! As long as you have headroom left in the stock ECU for fuelling and ignition, you only need a boost gauge and an MBC to add serious power. I don't know about the FWD Volvos, but you can add 40bhp to a 740 Turbo without changing anything else. Add a few other very simple items, and you can get +60bhp.

If you get a 700 turbo 'chipped', you're just paying for experts to do it for you (and the guarantee that comes with that!). However, they work no magic. All that happens is the boost pressure is increased, and the fuelling and ignition systems are modified to cope (for the 'standard' chipping, they just play with the fuel system). As far as I'm aware, that's all the FWD upgrades do.

There is a limit to what you can alter without changing physical components - the engine is set up at the factory to run correctly as-is...so what exactly do you think they do?! As far as I know, with NA cars it normally involves removing the high RPM restrictions (if the bottom end can take it), and 'pushing the boundaries' of ignition timing and mixture to provide greater midrange torque - which are set at the factory with a large 'safety margin'. For what its worth, my buddy paid 3-400 for a superchip for his 440 (NA)...and it added a mighty 8bhp! I'd have asked for a refund...

The only difference with a turbo car is....the turbo! So you can only alter parameters relating to the turbo - usually when the wastegate opens. One of the very popular mods in the 'early days' of T5 tuning on this site was to tighten up the wastegate actuator rod, generally giving greater midband torque.

Having said all of this...if you've got a money back satisfaction guarantee, you might as well go for it - whichever product it is on. I have a niggling feeling the MBC is being underestimated here, but then again I don't know if the 800/70 series turbo cars have the same headroom in the ECU as the 2/7/900 series turbo cars.

One final word. The other thing you could do is buy Megasquirt (circa £150), which is a DIY programmable FI system. Plug a laptop in, book a day on a rolling road (or buy a wideband O2 sensor and do it on the road) and get mapping it yourself! An ignition version is also available, but you generally need programmable FI long before you need the sparks playing with.

cheers

James

[don kalmar union]

Simon,

I would really like to get the links to those results that you have been given.

I have in fact no experience whatever of the MBC/Dawes device, but Dave Slater, who I believe makes them, is a real evangelist for their effect.

Best when you get the work done by your choice of supplier that you get the car run on a good local rolling road.

Coincidentally, maybe try and get to the session being organised by Dave near him in North Lincs. in a few weeks.

Interesting that there is a customer of a previously named 'tuner' who has been offered £1000 by another party (not me) if his car achieves, on a recently calibrated rolling road, the power he believes he has: I understand that he has shown a distinct reluctance to bid for that cash.


Don.Norchi.

www.kalmar-union.com

TME engineered software UK distributor.

James,

You are right, but it's far from being as simple as you say!!!

Yes you can get good gains from the bleed valve and MBC. However, the 850 T5 and later models are a lot more complex. On the 850 T5 and later models, ALL parematers can be modified, ie ignition, fueling, boost, rpm, speed limit, to name just the basics. The ECU relies very heavily on the MAF sensor to work out the calculated load and set the fueling etc accordingly.

What happens when you fit an MBC is that you are effectively producing the same effect as setting the wastegate to 14 psi. This has the effect of producing super-fast spool up, resulting in the amazing "butt dyno" effect from very low rpm. But what actually happens is that you simply get huge torque low down as a result of the high spool. The ECU cannot control the spooling and boost build up and is constantly sensing this huge increase in calculated load via the readings from the MAF sensor, and is therefore always trying to compensate for it. The results often lead to high torque but low power as heat soak and incorrect air flow amounts cause the air intake temp sensors and other sensors to tell the ECU that something is not right, and the ECU tries to back things off, either by trying to reduce boost, or by retarding ignition. Point is, it's always having to compensate for it, so you never get the best power or fuel economy. It's not a 740 turbo - it's an 850 T5 and it's complex.

As for the factory, the cars are hugely over-engineered. They are sold detuned for several reasons -

1. They have to cope with crap fuel.
2. They have to cope with owner neglegence and lack of maintenance.
3. They have to meet emissions worldwide, at minimal cost.
4. The manfacturer designs a long term plan for future upgrades, ie T5R, R, etc etc, all using the same engine.

Adam.

>Interesting that there is a customer of a previously named
>'tuner' who has been offered £1000 by another party (not me)
>if his car achieves, on a recently calibrated rolling road,
>the power he believes he has: I understand that he has shown a
>distinct reluctance to bid for that cash.
>
>
>Don.Norchi.
>
>www.kalmar-union.com
>
>TME engineered software UK distributor.

Don,

Any person betting on a dyno would have to be f**king stupid!!! Excuse my french, it's not aimed at you. I wouldn't even bet £1000 on my car starting first time in the morning, never mind what power it has.

Let's think about this sensibly for a change ;). A car is a mechanical machine. The ECU controls it. It can only control it based on what sensor signals it receives, and assuming everything is working correctly. Unless I am mistaken and someone will tell me otherwise, no mechanical, electrical, or electronic device is 100% reliable. Companies spend millions on risk assesment based on this fact. This means that ANYTHING can go wrong on a dyno, whichever software you have running on it. A MAF sensor can fail, an air leak can occur, a lambda sensor can fail, a temp sensor can fail, the list is very long. Jason is a classic example, where after changing a MAF sensor he gained about 20 bhp.

Whoever declined the bet, hats off to you for not rising to this. Get real people.

Adam.

ps. Formula 1 teams spend millions, and some engines can't even last a race. Would you put £1000 on a McLaren engine going the full race?

I would like to clarify a point about the RICA upgrades and other upgrades we sell. What happens if your car is not performing right?

Contrary to what some people on this forum think, we (Volvo Tuning) provide full customer backup and support. First of all, we strive that all cars leaving the workshop after any performance upgrade are running correctly. This is why every ECU upgrade is accompanied by full diagnostics and mechanical checks. We even inspect the turbo and spark plugs and all the hoses and sensor if we have to, because we want every car to leave running correctly.

So what happens if later down the line the car still doesn't run right? Simple - you should call us and asks for help and give us the opportuninty to fix it. The problem will be either -

1. Mechanical
2. Fuel related
3. Software

Whichever it is, we will always try to fix the problem, or recommend a fix, and we have all the facilities to do this in house. At no time do we ever simply sell an upgrade and leave you to deal with any problems on your own. The car must run right, simple as that.

Adam.

[sholtby]

Don,

I don't have any figures for different chips I just recall reading comments on the american sites from people who have found that Rica gave the greatest gains, sorry.
I still plan on buying a Rica chip (I've emailed those details to you Adam). But what I'll try and do Don, if I get time, is get the car on a dyno to see if the 305 bhp figure is correct. I wont be able to get to that session in Lincolnshire.
What can I expect to pay for dyno session to give me power and torque plots?
Adam, do you have any further proof that your figures are correct. ie from customers who have run their cars on an independant dyno?

Simon

Hi Simon,

Most of our "customer proof" is in the form of a phone call simply saying that they took the car to a dyno and were impressed that it was very close to the claimed power, with figures such as 300, 299, 303. One high miler managed 298 bhp. Some faulty or "tired" cars only managed about 270-280, with very worn turbos at 150,000 miles, air leaks, etc. All produced or exceeded the specified torque. More importantly, those that were subsequently fixed by ourselve did perform to spec afterwards. Even the stage 2 upgrade of 340 bhp has been confirmed by customers on independent dynos. Having said that, only a small percentage of our customers actually go on an independed dyno, because they're happy with the performance and don't see the need. Bear in mind that all the power claims are actually according to RICA Engineering themselves, and not simply invented by us.

Dyno sessions cost from £25 on a poor dyno to £150 on the best dyno. Remember that the RICA ECU upgrade is optimised for 98 RON and you will only achieve the claimed power with 98 RON. Also bear in mind that the size of the dyno fan has a massive impact on the power figures.

Should your car not produce the desired results, I would assume that we won't be given the opportunity to try and fix this, and therefore the money back guarantee is the only option.

Adam.