240 General: New (to me) 1980 Volvo 244

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

It's amazing what you can use adjustable spanners for Alan! Useful find with that Volvo Green Book too, i hope you've saved yourself a copy?

Will be interesting to see if it is the final piece of the jigsaw!

... slow running set up from scratch (tab bent 'a bit') and the slow running circuit screw adjusted to give 900RPM. The screw is now 1 1/2 turns out, so in the middle of its travel.

I thought the mixture had been adjusted to be just a little too rich (by looking at #1 plug), I don't have a gas analyser so I did it the old fashioned way (that one would have used on a bike in 1977): adjust a little > take on a test ride > have a look at the plug > adjust a bit more. I moved the CO screw 1 hex flat at a time inwards and found the best setting after 3 tests - 3xhex flats or 1/2 turn in from where it had been set.

I'm pretty sure I have the compression, ignition and fuel/air mixture spot on now, the Royal Barge is running very nicely with no thermal management issues on a hot day (about 25C I should think).

I've noticed the idle speed matches the stall speed of the auto box much better now.

I think that was the final piece in getting the Royal Barge running properly - but that doesn't mean I can't make some more improvements from here on.

Stay safe,

Alan

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

Whilst surfing I came across this Volvo repair and maintenance manual for BW55/AW55/AW70/AW71 automatic transmissions:

https://1drv.ms/b/s!Ask6E_1jz4xI_SvC...w6DiV?e=YBAX9o

This link may be time limited (I'm not sure, it is the first time I've tried hosting from One-drive).

Stay safe.

Alan

The link worked Alan, thanks very much! Saved a copy for myself seeing as it covers the AW70 as well.

Originally Posted by Othen

... slow running set up from scratch (tab bent 'a bit') and the slow running circuit screw adjusted to give 900RPM. The screw is now 1 1/2 turns out, so in the middle of its travel.

I thought the mixture had been adjusted to be just a little too rich (by looking at #1 plug), I don't have a gas analyser so I did it the old fashioned way (that one would have used on a bike in 1977): adjust a little > take on a test ride > have a look at the plug > adjust a bit more. I moved the CO screw 1 hex flat at a time inwards and found the best setting after 3 tests - 3xhex flats or 1/2 turn in from where it had been set.

I'm pretty sure I have the compression, ignition and fuel/air mixture spot on now, the Royal Barge is running very nicely with no thermal management issues on a hot day (about 25C I should think).

I've noticed the idle speed matches the stall speed of the auto box much better now.

I think that was the final piece in getting the Royal Barge running properly - but that doesn't mean I can't make some more improvements from here on.

Stay safe,

Alan

I'd lay bets the pervious owner unscrewed the mixture adjusting nut half a turn (3 flats) to cope with the fact it was running cold due to the t'stat that wasn't in there. With the adjustment on the idle bypass/slow running screw, it would alter the mix slightly and also the ignition timing a smidge (by improved vacuum in the manifold) so you should have it set up spot on from the sound of things now.

How do you mean on the idle and stall speeds?

Always good to start from a well running car when making improvements, that way they can be assessed for what they are and not the difference they make to a badly running engine!

[john.wigley]

There is definitely a "sweet" spot regarding tick-over on an auto, Alan, and you have obviously hit upon it!

Your words evoke memories* of balancing brake and gas on a carb fed motor following a cold start. You may well find that it is no longer necessary to slip the 'box into neutral when idling briefly in traffic, either!

Regards, John.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

The link worked Alan, thanks very much! Saved a copy for myself seeing as it covers the AW70 as well.

Thank you for letting me know it worked Dave - that was an experiment on my part.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Laird Scooby

I'd lay bets the pervious owner unscrewed the mixture adjusting nut half a turn (3 flats) to cope with the fact it was running cold due to the t'stat that wasn't in there. With the adjustment on the idle bypass/slow running screw, it would alter the mix slightly and also the ignition timing a smidge (by improved vacuum in the manifold) so you should have it set up spot on from the sound of things now.

How do you mean on the idle and stall speeds?

Always good to start from a well running car when making improvements, that way they can be assessed for what they are and not the difference they make to a badly running engine!

That was exactly my thought Dave - the anti-tamper cap was missing (but it could have been for the past 37 years), so I thought there might have been some previous adjustment. It was exactly the same line of thought for me: the PO had compensated for the engine running too cold by throwing in a bit more gas (half a turn).

I'm happy the RB is where it should be (taking into account the later breakerless ignition (good thing)). The one thing that would really improve the Royal Barge is an AW70/71 auto box. At the moment 70 MPH equates to 3750 RPM, which is a mite frantic, with a 4 speeder that would be more like 2250RPM (which would be lovely).

Stall speed for the torque converter: engine speed at which it doesn't transmit any forward motion, it feels like about 1000RPM for the BW55. If one can match the engine idle and torque converter speeds then there will be hardly any drag in position D in traffic (although a little bit is convenient).

Stay safe,

Alan

PS. I've been thinking Dave: I'm at a bit of a fork in the road with the Royal Barge project. What is is really short of to make it a fairly modern car is an AW70/71 transmission, but doing that means some fairly fundamental changes: box, prop shaft, speedo, cooling (engine and transmission), as well as probably carburettor and exhaust to take full advantage of the higher gearing). So, I can either decide to do that and make the RB pretty modern, or on the other hand I can tinker with it the way it is and keep it more or less original.

I need to have a think about this. It is not really a cost issue (as we discussed the other day the project is well within costs), it is just what I want to end up with. A lot of me likes the RB the way it is, warts and all - but there is a part that would like it the way it should have been (in which case perhaps I should have bought a 1993 car with FI, 4 speed auto box and load of computers!).

[Othen]

Originally Posted by john.wigley

There is definitely a "sweet" spot regarding tick-over on an auto, Alan, and you have obviously hit upon it!

Your words evoke memories* of balancing brake and gas on a carb fed motor following a cold start. You may well find that it is no longer necessary to slip the 'box into neutral when idling briefly in traffic, either!

Regards, John.

... that is exactly what Dave and I were discussing above John. Now the idle speed is much closer to the stall speed for the BW55's torque converter there won't be so much drag in traffic (although a little bit is nice - lazy drivers just put their foot on the big pedal and use the drag to manoeuvre in slow moving traffic). I always (subconsciously) put the car into neutral when not moving in traffic - it is a bike habit I think - and I just can't break it. I see your point though, I could probably get away with just using the big pedal.

The sweet spot idle speed is hard to hit with a carburettor, there are so many variables and very few controls... at the best of times it only gets things more or less right :-)

The BW55 3 speeder is absolutely fine around town (fortunately mostly where I use it), but would be a bit low geared for the highway. 70 MPH equates to about 3750RPM, which would be a bit irritating on a long trip.

Stay safe,

Alan

[john.wigley]

I think you will find 2250 RPM is on the low side, Alan. My 745, with the four-speed auto box, turned over at 2700 at 70 MPH - still a useful reduction on 3750. As well as a more relaxed drive, you will also benefit from less wear and tear and significantly improved economy (27 vs 24, so I would expect at least a 10% improvement).

If I were you, I would not discount the idea. A popular conversion was to convert an auto car to manual, so you may strike lucky and find a good tranny at a reasonable price. If, despite your best efforts, the R.B.'s tranny were to fail, you might be glad that you did!

Regards, John.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by john.wigley

I think you will find 2250 RPM is on the low side, Alan. My 745, with the four-speed auto box, turned over at 2700 at 70 MPH - still a useful reduction on 3750. As well as a more relaxed drive, you will also benefit from less wear and tear and significantly improved economy (27 vs 24, so I would expect at least a 10% improvement).

If I were you, I would not discount the idea. A popular conversion was to convert an auto car to manual, so you may strike lucky and find a good tranny at a reasonable price. If, despite your best efforts, the R.B.'s tranny were to fail, you might be glad that you did!

Regards, John.

Thank you John,

It looks like my very rough calculation of gear ratios was a long way out, no matter, 2700RPM at 70MPH waould be lovely.

The conversion to the AW71 box looks to have a few problems, this article is quite good (it is for a 260 but I suspect most the issues would be the same):

https://forums.tbforums.com/showthread.php?t=332124

I see your point about a manual conversion John, but to make it worthwhile it would have to be to a 5 speeder, which I suspect would have similar problems to the AW71. I quite like an auto box (my other cars are both 6 speed manuals, so I like driving something different in the RB).

As I said to Dave above, I’m at a fork in the road with the RB project. I can either modernise it (4 speed auto, plus... where would I stop) or I tinker with it as I have done so far but keep the car more or less standard (maybe I spend some money on a respray to make it look nice instead?).

The good thing is the RB is running nicely with the new head, the ignition, fuel and cooling systems all sorted, so I don’t need to make any hasty decision because something has failed.

This isn’t really a cost issue - I’m happy to invest a couple of grand in the RB project.

Stay safe,

Alan

[Laird Scooby]

Originally Posted by Othen

The one thing that would really improve the Royal Barge is an AW70/71 auto box. At the moment 70 MPH equates to 3750 RPM, which is a mite frantic, with a 4 speeder that would be more like 2250RPM (which would be lovely).

Stall speed for the torque converter: engine speed at which it doesn't transmit any forward motion, it feels like about 1000RPM for the BW55. If one can match the engine idle and torque converter speeds then there will be hardly any drag in position D in traffic (although a little bit is convenient).

Stay safe,

Alan

PS. I've been thinking Dave: I'm at a bit of a fork in the road with the Royal Barge project. What is is really short of to make it a fairly modern car is an AW70/71 transmission, but doing that means some fairly fundamental changes: box, prop shaft, speedo, cooling (engine and transmission), as well as probably carburettor and exhaust to take full advantage of the higher gearing). So, I can either decide to do that and make the RB pretty modern, or on the other hand I can tinker with it the way it is and keep it more or less original.

I need to have a think about this. It is not really a cost issue (as we discussed the other day the project is well within costs), it is just what I want to end up with. A lot of me likes the RB the way it is, warts and all - but there is a part that would like it the way it should have been (in which case perhaps I should have bought a 1993 car with FI, 4 speed auto box and load of computers!).

The drop from 3750rpm @ 70mph (~18.7mph/1000rpm) won't be as big as 1500rpm though. The overdrive/4th gear is about 0.7:1 usually so on that basis, you'll be getting about 26.7mph/1000rpm which would give 2625rpm @70mph give or take. Mine is a smidge higher geared than that with the higher ratio back axle (3.54:1) than origininally (3.91:1) so it's about 2500rpm @70mph but it's still a big drop from 3750rpm.

Stall speed - go for a drive and get the engine and gearbox warmed up. Pull the handbrake on as hard as you can andstand on the footbrake with your left foot.
Put it in to "D" and stand on the loud pedal with your right foot. Note the tacho rading, should be around 2100-2300rpm on most models. Don't exceed 10seconds for this test.

You've just measured the stall speed.


"I'm at a bit of a fork in the road with the Royal Barge project. What is is really short of to make it a fairly modern car is an AW70/71 transmission, but doing that means some fairly fundamental changes: box, prop shaft, speedo, cooling (engine and transmission), as well as probably carburettor and exhaust to take full advantage of the higher gearing). So, I can either decide to do that and make the RB pretty modern, or on the other hand I can tinker with it the way it is and keep it more or less original.

I need to have a think about this. It is not really a cost issue (as we discussed the other day the project is well within costs), it is just what I want to end up with. A lot of me likes the RB the way it is, warts and all - but there is a part that would like it the way it should have been "

That tells me you're not really in a fork in the road Alan. Sorry if that sounds contrary to your opening gambit but i can definitely relate to it and for me, it was more a case of "Am i doing the right thing?"
The answer was staring me in the face as i'm sure it will do to you when you find it but perhaps for different reasons. Why did you buy the RB in the first place? Because it was a car you owned many moons ago (not necessarily the same car but the same model) and back then, it wouldn't have been out of place to have 3750rpm showing on the tacho at motorway speeds.
However, times have moved on and it now stands out like a sore thumb that it needs an overdrive.
What are the alternatives? By a 740 auto to gain a car that has overdrive as standard? A 740GLE with K-Jetronic (mechanical) fuel injection, B230E engine and a 4 speed auto would be the nearest equivalent unless you could find a carb version which are rare.
It's not a 240 though. You bought a 240 because that was the car you wanted. Now you want a little more, the car that Volvo should have made first time round, correct?
I know you would regret selling it, especially if you sold it to buy a 740GLE that turned out to be a big disappointment. I suspect you would also regret not upgrading the transmission, as i think you would grow to resent the need for ear defenders on the motorway.

Now for the mods, the cooling system and separate ATF cooler is something i think you should do regardless to protect the auto box. I've already done my Sterling and when i find a good manual rad for my 760, that will be following suit.
As previously mentioned, i'm fairly sure the propshaft from the donor vehicle will be a match for your AW70, i'll try to make some enquiries tomorrow to find the length of the AW70 box and propshaft, i remember in the HBoF for the 140 series, there was a chart with the lengths of the propshafts and which gearboxes they were designed for. I'm fairly certain there are some AW70s with a speedo drive built in so that can be overcome as well.

Once fitted, the gearbox will be unseen but you will have the overdrive available to you from about 40-50mph upwards.
From the outside, nobody will be any the wiser but you will know. As for the exhaust and carb mods, i would wait until you've done the gearbox, you may find that the engine handles it fine without needing anything extra. That said, the manifold might be a good move, purely for longevity and the Weber might improve town driving and when you need extra power, definitely improve that.
Thing is, this will eat away at you until you do something about it. Far better to take the bull by the horns and find a gearbox, propshaft etc, Weber and manifold and stainless exhaust manifold and do it, maybe over winter.

In case you're wondering how i can relate to this, i've had my ROver 12 years now. When i first got it, the intention was to keep it as original as possible, with a few minor exceptions. However, with the parts supply i sonn became faced with two options. First was put it off the road untl the corect part became available - not really an option as i wanted to be able to use it.
The second was invent, adapt, modify other parts to overcome the problems.





First major problem was the coolant expansion tank. The majority of the Mk2 tanks were made with a mix of virgin polymer and regrind polymer so after a few years, they started breaking up, leaking, cracking and weren't reliable.

That's a late 90s Volvo expansion tank, i believe i was the first in the UK to do this, about the same time, someone in Australia did it and apparently posted the details online (i didn't have internet at the time) but it is now not only an accepted but (dare i say it) desirable modification as it eliminates a big reliability problem.

Next major problem was a certain chain of tyre fitting places who shall remain nameless but their initials are ATS wrecked the alloy wheels by using windy guns to remove/refit the nuts.



Those are 1998-02 Volvo x40 Telesto wheels.

This was the point when i got to the stage where i had to decide whether to endeavour to get things back to original or go the whole hog and make it the car Rover should have built.
It was about this time that the Channel 4 program, "Inside Rolls-Royce" with the story of the Phantom Celestial, the showcase 10th year anniversary one-off model was first shown. Watching that gave me the inspiration to make my Rover into something similar, in spirit at least.

Since then, various other minor mods/improvements have followed including (but not limited to) an interior retrim with extra soundproofing and my latest modification, a proper chrome grille with horizontal slats instead of vertical :



Probably a "Marmite thing" but i like it, hand built as well!

I hope you see from that i get where you're coming from, i honestly think you'll regret it if you don't go for at least the AW70 but if you decide not to, that's fine too.

In my view, adding the mods is like having a new car, just the same as the old one but better with all the good bits retained and the bad bits improved.

[john.wigley]

Sorry, Alan, I wasn't suggesting for one moment that you convert TO a manual! Far from it, I was thinking more that you may be able to pick up a good auto box from someone who has already carried that conversion and been unable to sell the auto box that they had removed.

Regards, John.