0W30 or 5W30

[JimG]

Learning lots from this thread!

I think my engine sounds clattery of late and suspect it's the valve lifters. I've always used the recommended Castrol Edge so it's a bit disappointing and I was going to try this:

https://pim.liqui-moly.de/pidoc/P000...oiladb=web.nsf

But should I assume that the valve lifters would have worn whatever? Do they just deteriorate with age?

[oilman]

Hi

Sometimes these things can be due to some muck in the oil system that prevents the lifters from moving properly. Reading the description of that, it sounds like there are some detergents in there to clean it, which is a good thing. The only thing that would concern me is the mention of damping the sound. The easiest way to dampen the sound is to thicken the oil, so it could be that it works that way, but I can't be sure.

What I often recommend for things like that is to buy a cheap oil and use that for a couple of days, then change to decent stuff. The detergents in the cheap oil should gently clean the engine and hopefully stop the noise.

Cheers

Tim

[skyship007]

Originally Posted by oilman

If a car requires an A5/B5 oil for the DPF, you can't just put in another spec as that can lead to a blocked DPF. I've dealt with a fair few D5 engines with DPFs and even when they have used a low ash oil rather than A5/B5 (the one that comes to mind is someone who used the Motul Eco Clean C2 rather than their Eco-nergy 0w-30), the DPF warning light kept coming on.

I don't advise the use of oil additives. Even ones that seem harmless can effect the oil chemistry and make the oil less effective. One company that I know of was developing a new additive technology, so they tried it with their own oils and the oil became less effective, so they had to come up with a different basestock to use with the new additive package.

There is no reason to change the oil grade at a certain mileage point. I often see that you should use a thicker oil when a car has covered a lot of miles (often
100k is mentioned), but it doesn't make sense. The only real reason to go to a thicker oil is when the engine is badly worn, leading to oil consumption issues.

Cheers

Tim

Liqui Moly are the only oil additive company that fully test their products. They might not be cheap but they will do exactly what their PDS says. That's way
different to most back street mixers.

Tim is right about using specific miles, but folks like a figure and the oil companies use 70K miles for HM oils, although most oily folks prefer 100K miles. It all depends on wear which has more to do with abuse and the number of stop starts.
Most HM oils are not full synthetics (Except Mobil 1 who make 2 types of 10w60) because a FS oil tends to have a higher leak rate when the seals are worn.
If you do have an old oil burner (Or even a new one) the cost of the oil is significant, so using Castrol Edge rather than Valvoline 10w40 is bad news.

The alternate to using an HM oil is to just move up one grade and try half a can of a major brand oil stop leak.

The lifter additive made by LM contains both detergent additives, a thickner and additional anti wear additives. It's aimed at one specific issue and in many cases changing the oil more often and using something thicker or a shorter oil change interval will also help.

The viscosity of the oil you use is less important than the viscosity of the actual oil when it's changed and fuel contamination is still a common issue with older diesels.
If you move up a grade from 30 to 40 after the block is worn it's kind of late, the trick is to do it before it's worn!

[skyship007]

Originally Posted by JimG

Learning lots from this thread!

I think my engine sounds clattery of late and suspect it's the valve lifters. I've always used the recommended Castrol Edge so it's a bit disappointing and I was going to try this:

https://pim.liqui-moly.de/pidoc/P000...oiladb=web.nsf

But should I assume that the valve lifters would have worn whatever? Do they just deteriorate with age?

If you have been using an 0w30 for the max recommended interval the lifters could be worn and the top end varnished up to some extent.

If it's not leaking oil, then I would first try a flush additive designed for use at idle only before changing to a major brand full synthetic 0 or 5w40 of the correct Acea spec. Don't use a drive around flush additive like Marvel Mystery Oil as they are kind risky for the turbo.

Finally, modern oils do not ontain enough anti wear additives to reduce wear to a minimum figure, so I use half a can of Ceratec every oil change.

Shell Ultra is about the best full synthetic and one of the cheapest at present.

A diesel will rattle on thin oil, BUT there are a lot of other reasons for rattling, including overheating and exhaust issues.

[oilman]

Originally Posted by skyship007

Liqui Moly are the only oil additive company that fully test their products. They might not be cheap but they will do exactly what their PDS says. That's way
different to most back street mixers.

That's fine, but I still wouldn't use any additives when oil companies advise not to mix any additives with their oils. Liqui-Moly have not tested their additives with all oils on the market, so you cannot be certain what will happen with some oils.

Just yesterday we were approached by yet another of the miracle oil additive companies. We won't be dealing with them. I could sell additives easily, people like to buy products that make their car better, but we do not advise the use of additives. We have had several additives tested and none have been an overall benefit to the car, some have been harmful.

Originally Posted by skyship007

Tim is right about using specific miles, but folks like a figure and the oil companies use 70K miles for HM oils, although most oily folks prefer 100K miles. It all depends on wear which has more to do with abuse and the number of stop starts.
Most HM oils are not full synthetics (Except Mobil 1 who make 2 types of 10w60) because a FS oil tends to have a higher leak rate when the seals are worn.
If you do have an old oil burner (Or even a new one) the cost of the oil is significant, so using Castrol Edge rather than Valvoline 10w40 is bad news.

I'm not sure what you mean by oily folks, but I deal with automotive oils far more than most people, I'm in contact with the oil techs for several of the big oil companies (and the more specialised ones too) and not once have any of them said that a modern (or relatively modern) engine is on high mileage at 70 or 100k and needs to use a thicker oil. I guess the oil companies might say that to the public in order to sell the more expensive HM oils, but we get more accurate information. Perhaps an older 60s/70s/80s engine would be seen as high mileage at 100k, but they used mineral oil and the engines were built to larger tolerances, leading to more wear.

Mobil make one 10w-60 for the UK market, the Mobil 1 10w-60 Extended Life (you can check via this link http://www.mobil.co.uk/UK-English-LC...s_mobil-1.aspx). The Motorsport Formula was the same stuff, but with a slightly different label.

Full synthetic oils do not have a higher leak rate than mineral oils. Leak rate is due to the viscosity and if an oil is a certain viscosity it is that viscosity whether it is synthetic, mineral or olive oil. Yes, there can be variances within a grade (like a 5w-40 could be almost as thin as a 0w-30 or almost as thick as 10w-50), but the chemical make up of the oil is irrelevant. You can make a synthetic thinner than a mineral oil, but you can make it thicker as well, there is more control when producing a synthetic oil.

Originally Posted by skyship007

The alternate to using an HM oil is to just move up one grade and try half a can of a major brand oil stop leak.

No, do not do that. Moving to a grade thicker is already reducing the flow rate of the oil, adding a stop leak product to that is likely to make it a couple of grades thicker than that. One major brand product I looked at would turn 5L of 5w-30 into a 15w-60. Yes, that will stop the leak, but it will not be protecting the engine properly.

Originally Posted by skyship007

The lifter additive made by LM contains both detergent additives, a thickner and additional anti wear additives. It's aimed at one specific issue and in many cases changing the oil more often and using something thicker or a shorter oil change interval will also help.

Okay, the detergent and antiwear additives are good things, but the thickener is a bad option, it's just covering up the issue by reducing noise. Like the stop leak issue above, it reduces protection.

Cheers

Tim

[oilman]

Originally Posted by skyship007

Finally, modern oils do not ontain enough anti wear additives to reduce wear to a minimum figure, so I use half a can of Ceratec every oil change.

Shell Ultra is about the best full synthetic and one of the cheapest at present.

Modern oils do contain plenty of anti-wear additives, it is often a misconception that because the level of ZDDP in modern oils is reduced to make them suitable for modern emissions systems that there has to be less protection. The ZDDP is replaced with other anti-wear additives and also the quality of the oil basestocks are so much better in modern synthetics than in older mineral oils that there is still plenty of protection. Also, ZDDP is only reduced in certain oils (API SM and SN spec) and there are current oils that are API SL and earlier that have a full dose of ZDDP.

The Shell Helix Ultra is a very good oil (it's what I use myself), but it's not the best on the market. If you want the absolute best protection, an ester based oil like the ***hs Pro S, Millers CFS, Red Line, Motul 300V or Gulf Competition are the ones to look at. I was hoping that one of those would get damaged in our warehouse before my service was due, but no luck, so the Shell was a good, sensible option.

Cheers

Tim

[Billggski]

I'm following this debate with interest as I have a variety of vehicles with different needs, a D2 V70 with 5,000 miles, a Mini Cooper S with 50,000, a Fiat based motorhome with 30,000 but used intermittently, standing for a long time, and a 1971 Land Rover with an early turbo engine. So as you can guess I have a lot of different oils in my garage.
I take the point about thicker oils not necessarily giving better protection, the oil pump will have to work harder to push it around. But I am now wondering about this damned stop/start feature on my V70, I now realise that the oil will stop circulating and drain down when it stops, which can be every few minutes in traffic. Is the oil specially formulated to cater for this?

[Clan]

Originally Posted by Billggski

I'm following this debate with interest as I have a variety of vehicles with different needs, a D2 V70 with 5,000 miles, a Mini Cooper S with 50,000, a Fiat based motorhome with 30,000 but used intermittently, standing for a long time, and a 1971 Land Rover with an early turbo engine. So as you can guess I have a lot of different oils in my garage.
I take the point about thicker oils not necessarily giving better protection, the oil pump will have to work harder to push it around. But I am now wondering about this damned stop/start feature on my V70, I now realise that the oil will stop circulating and drain down when it stops, which can be every few minutes in traffic. Is the oil specially formulated to cater for this?

Oil pumps on modern engines now have variable output controlled by the ECU mainly to reduce loads and therefore emissions , if the "wrong" oil is being used it could suffer if the pump is not running at full output .
Why does everyone want to deviate from the manufacturers specification oil? Just fit it and forget !

[oilman]

Originally Posted by Billggski

. But I am now wondering about this damned stop/start feature on my V70, I now realise that the oil will stop circulating and drain down when it stops, which can be every few minutes in traffic. Is the oil specially formulated to cater for this?

Hi

Yes and no. Castrol are re-labelling the Magnatec oils as they have been tested in stop/start applications and found to do a good job as the oil clings to the metals more than in some other oils.

In reality, the stopped period is likely to be pretty short, so there is unlikely to be a complete drain down of the oil and I think the stop start function only works when the oil is up to temp, so the oil will flowing well as soon as the engine starts running again.

Cheers

Tim

[oilman]

Originally Posted by Clan

Why does everyone want to deviate from the manufacturers specification oil? Just fit it and forget !

In some cars the manufacturers recommendation is the result of a commercial tie up and not really the optimal choice (petrol engined Alpinas, some Type R Hondas and some that I've just forgotten as the phone rang and I got distracted, basically the oil is a little thin and burns off at a high rate).

In others, the handbook spec is a basic, commonly available oil that you can get hold of easily. For example, the standard spec for my D5 is 15w-40, but I use 5w-40 to get better cold start protection. The same sort of logic can be applied to most engines.

More modern engines are made to very tight tolerances, with very strict emissions systems, so they need quite specific oil. With more modern Volvos, generally a 0w-30/5w-30 A5/B5 is the required grade and there isn't much leeway with that as it is required for the DPF.

Generally, manufacturers know what they are doing with oils and taking their advice is usually a good option.

Cheers

Tim