Blackstone Lab results (LM Synthoil, Edge & Ultra 5/40)

[skyship007]

Just got my latest set of results and will add the full scan copy in a few days, as I have to use another laptop and scanner.

Notes:
All the wear metal figures for the 200ml sample of 10K km used oil are in ppm.
The left number is the latest of 4 OCI results, the oil was changed every 10K and both the oil & oil filter every 20K km.
The table is for the last 4 sets of results and a summary only.

Engine oils used in order:
Shell Helix Diesel Ultra 5/40, Castrol Edge Turbo Diesel 5/40 (C3/DPF), Liqui-Moly High Tech Synthoil 5/40, LM HTS 5/40 again.

WEAR METALS (Parts per million):
Universal Average for a 7.7K km run of the F9Q2 last in brackets.

Al (Upper cylinder area)...6---6---4---4---(7)
Cr (Rings)......................1---2---1---1---(3)
Fe (Iron general wear).....34--55--33--32-(44)
Cu (Turbo bearings).........8---10--7---6---(6)
Pb (Main bearings).......... 3---7---2---3---(5)

INSOLUBLES %:........... 0.3--0.3--0.4--0.5 (Filter limit 0.8)

SUS Viscosity@210f:....63---68---68---66... (Min Sae 40 group is 66)

Flashpoint(f):..............395---450---410---440.. (Min limit 410)

Note: The most recent figure on the left (Ulta) includes 250ml of LM idle only flush run as top up 10 mins before drain. A rough corrected flash point is
420f, but that assumes no evaporation. 415f might be a good guess with. No correction for the SUS is available at present.

SILICON (Air filtration):...6....11....8....14 (Universal average 13)
Filter age ....Fairly new---Mod used---New---Mod used
Note: This winter was warm, calm and humid, hence the new low figure.

HG FAILURE MARKERS
Potassium:...2....3....0....6....(Average 1 to 2)
Sodium:.......2---0----6----3....(Average 44, BUT it is also used as a GTX additive)

Warnings:
Use of thin oil (The idle flush) for Ultra 5/40 is equivalent to 1.5% fuel contamination. Second LM Synthoil 5/40 in winter shows 0.5% trace of fuel.

My comments to lab (summary):
Castrol Edge Turbo Diesel 5/40 (C3/DPF) is real bad news. The Shell Ultra 5/40 included just 100ml of LM Ceratec.
Oil & Filter changed from Diesel Ultra 5/40 to standard Ultra 5/40, BUT with 200ml LM Ceratec additive.
The idle flush has now resulted in a very clean block, new oil not turned black at 1K km. Perfect audio spectrum at hot and cold idle, LM Diesel purge used to confirm injectors fee from gum deposits. Fuel traces are from cold start short tripping.
Used oil Ultra Zn figure only 967, looking for Pennzoil Ultra VOA, or might be flush chemistry with associated P compound?

Summary
I'm not using any type of Castrol oil again, as their tech dept said the C3 was backwards comp to cover A3/B4. It does not look that way in the real world as the Iron went up by 60% and the Lead by over double, then the figures drop right back to the same ones as the LM synthoil.
Shell Ultra 5/40 is half the cost of Synthoil 5/40, which is why I am sticking with Ultra and Ceratec. I plan to fit a 250W sump heater and garage timer around October to see if I can reduce the warm up time and cold start wear factors.

[skyship007]

Copy of the best way to use Ceratec oil additive.
Note: The "Lasts 50K km" in the TDS and advertising is correct in legal terms, BUT that is only in a truck engine where you don't change the oil too often!

[I]Thank you for your request dated 09.12.2013.

We can recommend to add this additive eyer oil change that includes the filter change ( 20k km) because a minimal dosage from about 100 ml and less than 5% on engine oil wouldn`t have the best result and the additive couldn`t work very well. So the best application is to use Cera Tec every second oil change with dosage 5%-6% for the best results.

We hope we could help you with our informations. Should you have further questions regarding our products we would be very pleased to get contacted from you again.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen / Best regards

i. A. xxxxxx Weissinger
Anwendungstechniker
application engineer

F & E / Anwendungstechnik

Phone: +49 731 1420-xxx
Fax: +49 731 1420-xxx

LIQUI MOLY GMBH
Jerg-Wieland-Straße 4, D-89081 Ulm

www.liqui-moly.de

Amtsgericht Ulm HRB 1383 | Geschäftsführer: Ernst Prost
Court of registration Ulm, HRB 1383 | Managing Director: Ernst Prost


If you want a good oily laugh I saw this Blackstone oil report from a 2010 VW TDI.
The owner is just doing what VW ordered, using a top of the range ultra low SAPS (C3 plus) Amsoil full synthetic engine oil:
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums..._T#Post3346944

Some of the advice from Bobs members (I got banned because the mods thought I was German and they sell Mobil 0/40 and snake oil products) makes sense, because he is using a junk oil that has a good base stock, BUT it's an ultra low ash one. VW are only concerned about fuel economy and emissions, NOT about engine wear rates. Their diesels have poor quality everthing, there is even a very obvious particle streak bounce (Sudden Iron spike figures with none of the other wear metals bouncing). Looks like debris from a new engine block just went through the oil pump (It's the only Iron part) and got mashed. It's a non issue in wear terms.

How long the oil was run is the big issue, it's far too long for the cheap almost additive free Amsoil. The TBN listed at the bottom is far too low, if you don't know the TAN (Extra 10 dollars), dump the oil at one third of new minimum. About 3 for a good oil, or it will start causing sludge, varnish and corrosion.
What that engine needs is a 5K mile oil dump, then 10K mile main oil & filter job, IF he has bought a drum of Amsoils worst. Even the Amsoil salesman is saying "Wrong oil".
If he did not buy a drum or getting his post warranty oil for free from Amsoil, I would say try using an LM idle flush just before the next OCI to make sure the block is clean, change to a 5K / 10K twofors lube schedule, use a real VW oil filter AND a non HDEO major brand 0 or 5/40 like
M1 0/40, Castrol Edge 0/40 or best of all Pennzoil Ultra 5/40 (A3/B4). Importing LM Synthoil would be better, but too expensive.
If that particle bounce leaves a bad trend in Fe or Pb terms (Very unlikely), then start using LM Ceratec oil additive. Start using it anyway when the oil consumption starts to increase, otherwise try and find a better C3/DPF rated oil, it should have some Moly and Boron.
Always DYOR!
Note:
The Fe bounce of 121 ppm is third change from the right, the Pb and Al were trending down, so that's the oil pump, as I don't think VW use cam chains. Even newer Fords don't get those and they use cheap bearings, so the QA folks are not checking or cleaning something when that engine fell off the production line robot.

If anyone wants to copy that to Bobs the Oil Man forum please do, but the regulars go nuts when they read anything negative anyway.

[skyship007]

Just fired up the scanner, so here is the actual report.

[Orca2]

I am glad you got round to doing this first mate I just haven't had the time.

[Backhill1]

I’m not sure of the driver of the analysis or why a lab in the U/S is being used but I can help with industry leading samples and analysis with results in approximately 48hrs from receipt (quicker) if required in the UK.

Also our lab testing is industry leading and tests for more things than anyone else (most oil companies and engine manufacturers actually use our technology and lab).

More importantly and the reason I’m mentioning is the cost is approximately half what is being quoted excluding delivery etc @ approx. £14.

I only use this side of the business for trending and condition monitoring and for investigative purpose but if this is of interest PM me and I will assist where I can.
What is fantastic is it is Engine system driven and gives a report of the analysis based on the data, also automatically it trends against all other samples against the same id (serial number / reg number etc.) and normally the best time to sample is before an oil change at a fixed interval as it will show wear patterns and dilution. I.e. a slight increase in soot and chrome would indicate cylinder wear or fuel dilution might be an injector on its way out etc.

NOTE if it’s for insurance / warranty claim or Legal purposes let me know in advance as there is a slight surcharge to ensure it’s a UKAS report supplied which can include calibration and certification data and can be used from a legal stand point without any need for representation (taken as fact).

Example being Mr X you warranty is not applicable as you cannot document you changed your oil in line with manufacturers recommendations (cam belt failure for example), Mr X I have a sample 3 days before failure showing oils was A1 and had nothing to do with failure do you want to go to court. OK we will pay out. This has been successful on more occasions than I care to remember. ALL manufacturers rely on maintenance and operator error to cover over 95% of warranty claims and is the first line of defence it’s up to the operator to prove otherwise! (hence why we all pay safe and use dealers).

[skyship007]

@BACKHILL1

Which company are you working for?? The mods won't object to you using a company name or even a web site link.

The reason I use Blackstone Lab in the USA is that they are cheaper than any oil lab in the EU and fast. The ones in Germany cost at least 50 Euros even for a very basic report. Blackstone charge 25 dollars and the one way post is about 4 quid.

[Backhill1]

skyship007 if you want to PM me i can provide all the details necessary for you to progress along with Part numbers etc to order.
Basically its a KIT with an addressed envelope with postage paid, you just complete the form and take the sample and put in the post.

[volvoid]

This could get very technical, and perhaps it should.
It would be interesting to see a summary of lots of oil types with wear rates.

I see you arent impressed with VW engines and oils - many people have VWs, any comments on oils types which best suit them ?

(no doubt there is a very techy forum somewhere but Id much rather read a few lines of plain English)

[skyship007]

Originally Posted by volvoid

This could get very technical, and perhaps it should.
It would be interesting to see a summary of lots of oil types with wear rates.

I see you arent impressed with VW engines and oils - many people have VWs, any comments on oils types which best suit them ?

(no doubt there is a very techy forum somewhere but Id much rather read a few lines of plain English)

Not sure what you mean by VW oils, but VW did run into an issue with their TDI engines when they decided to use cheaper steel parts and bearings. Those diesels need an oil with a good level of Zinc anti wear additives, BUT VW can't recommend such oils because they might block the CAT or DPF earlier than normal. That issue was compounded by the move to lower viscosity oils to improve fuel consumption figures.

In my opinion none of the current engine oils that are certified for use with diesels that have a DPF (Acea C3) are as good as similar oils with a A3/B4 spec (Just look at my figures for Castrol TD). There simply does not seem to be an alternative to the use of Zinc anti wear additives that works as well.
The DPF has proven to be real bad news, both in terms of restricting oil additive contents AND contaminating that oil with diesel fuel. For a car that is short tripping the oil change interval needs to be kept fairly short, as diesel fuel thins the oil and interferes directly with the function of the anti wear additives like Zinc, Moly and Boron compounds. Diesel should evapourate from engine oil during a good run, but the Bio diesel content has a much higher flashpoint, so it accumulates.

The dealers are making matters worse by sticking to very long oil change intervals, which are often around 20 to 30K km. UOA results have shown that most city based cars that are short tripping need their oil dumped much more often. The new OLM systems do take that into account, but those systems don't know if the engine oil is contaminated or not.
In main block wear terms most diesels like the HDEO (Heavy duty engine oils) that were designed for truck engines, although some of the high tech full synthetics also work well, although LM Synthoil has as much Zinc as an HDEO.

Every engine is different, is used differently and will be in a different general condition to engines of the same type. So there is no answer as to which oil is best. If I owned a modern diesel car I would first of all try and establish a base line of UOA results with 3 oil change intervals using the recommended oil, then I would try using a major brand HDEO to see what difference it made. If it did improve the figures I might try using an x/40 rather than an x/30 to see if that helped or just use the approved oil and try a can of LM Ceratec. My next set of results should show how effective that additives is, although I already know from looking at results for other diesels that it works better than traditional Moly. Ceratec might be able to make up for the low Zinc levels in DPF engine oils, as that was one of its design targets. The oil companies don't use it because it would add about 5 to 10 Euros to the cost of a 5 liter can.

I would point out to those folks who don't know too much about engine lubrication issues, that how often you change the oil and the quality of the oil filter are just as important as the oil itself. It's also much more important to pay attention to oil service issues if an engine has a turbo, as they are far more sensitive than the main block to poor lubrication.
Another thing I have noticed from this forum, is that owners don't appreciate that when you buy a used car, it is very important to check that the block is clean. If you change oil and it turns black after a few trips, it's often because there is some degree of sludge present. It takes my oil about 1K km of short tripping before it turns even slightly black, so I know the block is clean, although I still do the occasional idle flush just before an oil change to make sure. Poor oil flow around the head is a major cause of HG failures and increased upper cylinder wear rates (High Chrome and Alluminium figures in the used oil). So picking an oil that cleans well is important.

In the old days, most diesels that were not abused and correctly maintained died of main bearing failures (Or related severe oil leaks). With modern full synthetic oils if you play the lubrication game correctly, that is often no longer the case, as upper cylinder issues and valve guide oil seal failures in particular seem to be more important. So using good quality fuel, keeping the injectors clean with the occasional use of a direct feed cleaner and most important of all, a good motorway session to clean out Carbon deposits from the cylinders is very important. Oddly enough a simple sump heater can make a difference during winter, as it reduces the time taken for the engine to warm up (Block heaters are better but expensive and more complex to fit). They make a big difference to cylinder deposits if you have to do a lot of short trips as I do.

[5cilinder]

Oil that gets black quick is doing its job of cleaning , oil with less cleaning dopes stays "clean" longer
Also if the oil gets black it can stil get "blacker" in dirt density

In absence of oil analisys you can do a blotterspot test with a white coffeefilter and a drop of oil from the dipstick to see if the oil still can dissapate dirt and show fuelcontamination in the rings


Its true that the 5w40 oils with lots of zincdopes are way better than the 0w30 wateroils with 10% biodiesel due to dpf regenerations

I have a dpf and dont use the 0w30 oils i use a good zinc 5w40 oil and vibrate the extra ash once in a while out of the dpf