Chris1Roll's return to 700 ownership

[SalvadorP]

Car looks and sounds amazing. for sure 80k miles is worth restoring to original condition even if it has some top end engine issues. You did want a car to thinker a bit didn't you!?
I might be wrong but 195 sounds way too high. But more worisome is the difference between cylinders
There are borescopes on amazon that you can buy cheap, not for 10 (not € at least), I think, but for 20. There are essentially 2 types. The cheapest ones, the ones you hook up to the smartphone that use a proprietary app that by all accounts is pretty shaddy in terms of privacy and data access. I heard with some thinkering you can use them with other apps, but don't quote me on that. Then there are the stand alone units, which have a ****ty display that has the boroscope attached to it. Most of them allow to record to a micro sd card. Most will claim to record full HD but no borescope costing 20/30€ will record HD. So the image is actually 480p at best. Is it good enough? Most of the times yes. If you are not in a rush and keep the camera steady for a bit while recording, then you export the files to a decent size computer monitor, it's alright.

If you don't mind cheesing the system, you can use amazon's "mislabeling" (they know what they are doing. they know most people wont check if the files are 1080p) to return the item for being falsely advertised. Basically any 20 to 40 bucks standalone borescope that claims to be "Full HD", "1080p", "2k" or "4k", won't. So you can order one, check the cylinders/valves (they have a mirror camera attachment that allows to check valves easily), export the files to a computer and return the item to mister Jeff.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Chris1Roll

It was only raining a little bit this morning, and my compression tester (I wouldn't save it was especially expensive -it cost £40 rather than £15 - but the braided hose still spun in the fitting and I had to uses some pliers to remove it from the engine.. I wouldn't want to thread it into a twin cam engine.) and new feeler gauges had arrived yesterday, so I set about my investigations.

First I started the car up and ran it up to temperature at idle - It was a little lumpy when cold - then shut it off and removed all the spark plugs.
Removed fuses 1 and 11 (Main pump/ignition and in-tank pump), hooked the battery up to the C70 on some jump leads to make sure that was consistent, screwed the tester into No1 cylinder, held the throttle wide open and turned the key.
Nothing.
After a few moments of confusion, and checking which fuses I had removed, I put the gearshift back into P and tried again - at least I know the interlock works now.

Try again, throttle wide open, and cranked until the reading stabilised
No1 - 170
No2 - 195
No3 - 155-170 (was inconsistent over a few attempts)
No4 - 195


I'd have been happy with 170 across all, but apparently it can achieve 195 (which seems high to be honest, but the engine does only have 82k on it?)
I did each cylinder in turn again to be sure (and a few more on number three) with the same results.
13% lower on 1 and sometimes more on 3; I don't think that is quite what I was hoping for.

Then it started to rain so I went and hid in the shed for a bit while deciding to carry on and check the valve clearances.

By the time I got to this the engine had been cooling off for probably 3 hours. I can do it again one evening so it's definitely cold but really its the differences I'm looking at. (my gauges only go up in 0.05 increments, I should have checked that when ordering..)

1E 0.35
1I 0.5

2E 0.4
2I 0.45

3E 0.35
3I 0.5

4E 0.35
4I 0.45

Is the fact that the inlet valve clearances are bigger and out of tolerance even for a warm engine let alone cold, on the same cylinders that have the lower compression of any significance, given that the inlet valves are larger and in theory more likely to get tweaked by the dome on the top of the B200e pistons?

Well done.

I wouldn't worry too much about the 195 PSI readings being higher than you expected for an 80,000 mile engine; your expensive (in my terms, but then I'm a tightwad) tester hasn't particularly been calibrated against anything. The important thing is the difference between the cylinders - having them all within 10% is a good thing.

The first, simplest and cheapest thing to do is a wet CR test (as Dave suggested above). The pressure will increase a bit anyway (just due to the volume of the oil - I normally use a squirt of ATF); if the increase is significant for cylinders #1 and #3 (but less so for #2 and #4) that would indicate the a bottom end issue (rings or bores). If it doesn't make so much difference then top end: HG or valves.

If it turns out to be likely a bottom end issue then it would be a good idea to have a look with an endoscope. I bought a really cheap (about a tenner) one that plugs into an old Linx 7 windows tablet that I keep just for oily jobs. I find it perfectly good for reconnaissance tasks like this one, so I'd suggest you don't take so much notice of reviews (which will be mostly written by IT buffs rather than someone wanting a quick look inside a cylinder head).

If the wet and dry CR test indicates it is a top end issue then the only real way of checking is to remove the head, but that only takes an hour or so. Getting it tested and skimmed probably isn't something you will be able to do yourself, but it is pretty standard engineering and you should be able to find someone to do it locally. If you do that it would be a good idea to adjust the valve clearances and then fit new hushers before putting it back on the motor car.

If you do take the head off it is easy to inspect the bores then. If they aren't scored then it might be okay to just hone the bores and fit new piston rings. I did that on the RB (I'll find a link for you and post it below before going Bobwalkin) with entirely positive results. It is a job you could do yourself at home in about a day.

I think someone said above that it was necessary to remove the hushers before checking the valve clearances. That isn't so with an 80,000 mile engine: rubber husters that old will have no effect on the clearances. It is only important to check the the clearances without the hushers when they are brand new. Someone else said that it is necessary to remove the cam to change the hushers - that isn't so either - if you use a valve shim remover tool (I think I posted a photo of mine somewhere above) then you can take out the shims one at a time with a magnet and use some long tweezers to swap the hushers. If you do take the head off for checking, then it is easier to set up the valve shims with it on the bench, but I'd still use a valve shim remover tool to insert the hushers one by one so as not to disturb the cam again.

So, I'd suggest the first thing to do is a free and easy wet test, then maybe a look with a borrowed endoscope (or buy a cheap one from eBay) - and then decide what to do about it (if anything). You may be over-thinking this a bit - I doubt that a valve is bent - the difference is CRs is probably due to fair wear and tear on a 30 year old motor. If you bought the motor car fairly cheaply and it runs okay now I'd probably suggest just screwing it back together with a new tensioner, adjusted valve shims, new hushers and and then just keeping an eye on it (that is probably what I would do). If on the other hand you want it to be perfect then work out which of the remedial jobs need doing. It just depends on how good you want the product to be, and how much effort you want to spend on getting there).

This is the beauty of running an older motor car - to me it sounds like a marvellous project .

Good fortune,

Alan

Addendum: Here is the link to the bore hone/piston rings work I did on the RB. It wasn't that difficult and if I remember correctly took about two days (spread over 4 days) - but that included lots of tidying up jobs:

https://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showp...postcount=2915

... I did notice that oil consumption was high for about 100 miles after the job, but that soon settled down.

[baggy798]

Originally Posted by Othen

Someone else said that it is necessary to remove the cam to change the hushers - that isn't so either

Yes it is. The hushers are under the buckets and you can't get the buckets out without removing the cam.

OP, don't put new hushers in, they're crap! A few bits of the old ones in there now will probably have found a new home on the oil pickup screen. Total waste of time and money.

The B200E and B230E both came with V cams so definitely interference. It sounds like a normal redblock in the video, and being a 2.0 auto you won't notice any performance difference with a couple of the cylinders being 25 psi down.😝

I'm surprised someone hasn't suggested putting a gallon of ATF in the oil.😂

[Othen]

Originally Posted by baggy798

Yes it is. The hushers are under the buckets and you can't get the buckets out without removing the cam.

OP, don't put new hushers in, they're crap! A few bits of the old ones in there now will probably have found a new home on the oil pickup screen. Total waste of time and money.

... maybe you are right about the buckets - I thought I'd remembered there was enough clearance with the cam lobes upwards - but now you remind me I'm not sure (old man's memory). Luke was probably right (Afternote: I have a feeling I may have loosened the cam bearing caps 'a bit' to give enough clearance).

We will have to agree to disagree about the value of hushers - in my direct experience they make the motor quieter and Mr Volvo certainly put them there for that reason.

[Chris1Roll]

Originally Posted by Othen

If you bought the motor car fairly cheaply and it runs okay now I'd probably suggest just screwing it back together with a new tensioner, adjusted valve shims, new hushers and and then just keeping an eye on it (that is probably what I would do).

A well considered post Alan, sorry I've snipped it right down...

I gave £1800 for it. I've been watching the 'seriously?' thread for a good 18 months now and surmised I wanted to pay under £2k for a usable vehicle that was structurally sound and with at least some provenance.
This comes with provenance galore, was definitely usable at the time money changed hands and has no structural rust. (the inner lip of the rear arches has some that currently you can only see with your head inside the arch and which I will attempt to stop in its tracks this summer) The interior is really tidy aside from a heat crack to the dashtop.
The cost of the two things I wanted to do straight away - belt and a backbox plus a service I guesstimated reasonably well would stay under the £2k limit, although the backboxes seem unreasonably expensive compared to the mid sections.
Thats £500 less than the previous owner paid, and considerably less than the £4k asked for in 2019. I don't know what it actually sold for that time.

...
If it were bottom end issues, I don't think I would bother with that work on a 2litre, I'd rather keep driving it, find a 2.3 and fully rebuild that at a relaxed pace under the cover of my shed. Many years ago with a friend I have rebuilt a vintage tractor engine and a 480 turbo engine in the past, and would quite like to do another.

Of course that would mean the car wouldn't be 'original' any more, so more consideration required.
It is only a GL - a 'cooking' variant, so it will never attract top dollar, not that I bought it to make money on anyway, I want it to use it, keep it in good order and tinker in between.

If the existing engine keeps going as-is, fine, I don't actually drive that fast these days anyway!

...

Literally no-body I have spoken to has said 'ooh I'd take the head off with those numbers', in fact more have said 'wouldn't worry about it' so on that basis I'm going to take the balance of the (collective) wisdom and do as you state above.
If I wasn't going to listen to advice, I wouldn't have asked for it!

I need to get the valve shim remover tool and to measure the existing ones to order the ones I need (from experience I may be able to swap them around a bit to minimise the number that need doing) and then do the full service - I also have a litre and a half of brake fluid that I only opened on Saturday that I may as well use to flush right through with, since that is a job so often neglected by garages and owners alike.

Originally Posted by baggy798

being a 2.0 auto you won't notice any performance difference with a couple of the cylinders being 25 psi down.😝

Haha yes it is a bit slow, but it is at least a pre-catalyst model - those were utterly strangled!
The autobox was a choice so my wife can drive it on occasion if I go off in the estate, and the 2litre was a compromise because the car ticked all the other boxes - solid and has good provenance.

Originally Posted by baggy798

I'm surprised someone hasn't suggested putting a gallon of ATF in the oil.😂

To quiet it down or as a flush?
I've flushed them with diesel before, and a friend of mine used to be the mobile plant supervisor at a local quarry, all of their cars got a flush with a gallon of CAT hydraulic oil, engines were literally spotless inside afterwards!
The inside of the rocker is pretty clean, so I'm just going to put some fresh 10w-40 in it

[Laird Scooby]

Just drop a B230E in it, it's a bigger engine from the same range so won't be a problem with Historic status and you won't have to worry about the infamous B200 piston slap on #4 cylinder.

As for adding some Carlube ATF-U or NAPA MVA, usually a good idea but without knowing the exact nature of the problem with those two low pots, it may or may not do any good.
About 10% of normal oil volume works best.

Whenever i do an oil/filter change, the first 0.5L of fresh is one or t'other of those ATFs, both are synthetic and mineral doesn't work as well. It stays in until the next oil/filter change. People who haven't tried these things shouldn't knock but they obviously have nothing better to do all day.

[volvo always]

B230E in my 1989 240 GLT was a good engine and a good match to the AW70/71 auto gearbox. A nice combination.

Gave no major trouble over 72,000 miles or 10 years, apart from the tail output bearing. 8 years as only car and sold at 234,000miles. Only age related replacement was the gearbox cooler pipes corroded at the fixing mounting brackets.

The B230E I believe was also fitted to the 740.

James.

[Othen]

Originally Posted by Chris1Roll

A well considered post Alan, sorry I've snipped it right down...

I gave £1800 for it. I've been watching the 'seriously?' thread for a good 18 months now and surmised I wanted to pay under £2k for a usable vehicle that was structurally sound and with at least some provenance.
This comes with provenance galore, was definitely usable at the time money changed hands and has no structural rust. (the inner lip of the rear arches has some that currently you can only see with your head inside the arch and which I will attempt to stop in its tracks this summer) The interior is really tidy aside from a heat crack to the dashtop.
The cost of the two things I wanted to do straight away - belt and a backbox plus a service I guesstimated reasonably well would stay under the £2k limit, although the backboxes seem unreasonably expensive compared to the mid sections.
Thats £500 less than the previous owner paid, and considerably less than the £4k asked for in 2019. I don't know what it actually sold for that time.

...
If it were bottom end issues, I don't think I would bother with that work on a 2litre, I'd rather keep driving it, find a 2.3 and fully rebuild that at a relaxed pace under the cover of my shed. Many years ago with a friend I have rebuilt a vintage tractor engine and a 480 turbo engine in the past, and would quite like to do another.

Of course that would mean the car wouldn't be 'original' any more, so more consideration required.
It is only a GL - a 'cooking' variant, so it will never attract top dollar, not that I bought it to make money on anyway, I want it to use it, keep it in good order and tinker in between.

If the existing engine keeps going as-is, fine, I don't actually drive that fast these days anyway!

...

Literally no-body I have spoken to has said 'ooh I'd take the head off with those numbers', in fact more have said 'wouldn't worry about it' so on that basis I'm going to take the balance of the (collective) wisdom and do as you state above.
If I wasn't going to listen to advice, I wouldn't have asked for it!

I need to get the valve shim remover tool and to measure the existing ones to order the ones I need (from experience I may be able to swap them around a bit to minimise the number that need doing) and then do the full service - I also have a litre and a half of brake fluid that I only opened on Saturday that I may as well use to flush right through with, since that is a job so often neglected by garages and owners alike.


Haha yes it is a bit slow, but it is at least a pre-catalyst model - those were utterly strangled!
The autobox was a choice so my wife can drive it on occasion if I go off in the estate, and the 2litre was a compromise because the car ticked all the other boxes - solid and has good provenance.


To quiet it down or as a flush?
I've flushed them with diesel before, and a friend of mine used to be the mobile plant supervisor at a local quarry, all of their cars got a flush with a gallon of CAT hydraulic oil, engines were literally spotless inside afterwards!
The inside of the rocker is pretty clean, so I'm just going to put some fresh 10w-40 in it

I have not seen the motor car, but I think you got it for a very sensible price. It is a pity about the cam belt failure, these things just happen.

With project motor cars I always think it is a really good idea to decide upon one's aim at the outset, and then work out a budget (of money and time) to suit. It seems to me that with this motor car you have three possible courses:

a. Renovate it to near new condition. I think you know already that would never pay. It is a cooking model with no particular historical interest.

b. Do a 'restomod' with the usual bling that folk seem to like (but make no sense to me): big alloy wheels, very low profile tyres, lowered suspension, turbochargers, garish paint... tyre clearance problems, wayward handling, blown up engines... undercar lighting, furry dice. That will cost a fortune. In my humble opinion that would be money wasted (but I have no view on what folk should waste their cash on).

c. Give the motor car a good service, fix the stuff that is wrong (like the exhaust back box) and drive it the way Mr Volvo intended for another decade or so (if it is still feasible to drive a gas powered motor car by then ).

I'd go for COA 'c' every day... and I suspect that is what you have concluded as well. From what you have told us I think you have just about dodged a bullet with the cam belt issue. Fix the cam belt and the back box, change all the fluids and enjoy it for what it is; I'm not sure I'd even bother with the valve clearances*. Other jobs will appear over the course of the next decade to give you plenty of project jobs to enjoy - 30-60 year old Volvos are just like that. It sounds like a nice motor car to me.

I'm not sure I'd agree with putting ATF in the oil - Mr Volvo intended for the viscosity to be what is written on the tin, not something thinner (others will disagree).

Just the thoughts of a middle aged man with a beard. Bobwalkin time now.



*: Did you do the wet pressure test? I would do that because it is free, easy and will give you a good idea of the condition of the engine. There is a big difference between knowing something isn't quite right and doing something about it though .

[Chris1Roll]

Originally Posted by Othen

I have not seen the motor car, but I think you got it for a very sensible price. It is a pity about the cam belt failure, these things just happen.

With project motor cars I always think it is a really good idea to decide upon one's aim at the outset, and then work out a budget (of money and time) to suit. It seems to me that with this motor car you have three possible courses:

a. Renovate it to near new condition. I think you know already that would never pay. It is a cooking model with no particular historical interest.

b. Do a 'restomod' with the usual bling that folk seem to like (but make no sense to me): big alloy wheels, very low profile tyres, lowered suspension, turbochargers, garish paint... tyre clearance problems, wayward handling, blown up engines... undercar lighting, furry dice. That will cost a fortune. In my humble opinion that would be money wasted (but I have no view on what folk should waste their cash on).

c. Give the motor car a good service, fix the stuff that is wrong (like the exhaust back box) and drive it the way Mr Volvo intended for another decade or so (if it is still feasible to drive a gas powered motor car by then ).

I'd go for COA 'c' every day... and I suspect that is what you have concluded as well. From what you have told us I think you have just about dodged a bullet with the cam belt issue. Fix the cam belt and the back box, change all the fluids and enjoy it for what it is; I'm not sure I'd even bother with the valve clearances*. Other jobs will appear over the course of the next decade to give you plenty of project jobs to enjoy - 30-60 year old Volvos are just like that. It sounds like a nice motor car to me.

I'm not sure I'd agree with putting ATF in the oil - Mr Volvo intended for the viscosity to be what is written on the tin, not something thinner (others will disagree).

Just the thoughts of a middle aged man with a beard. Bobwalkin time now.



*: Did you do the wet pressure test? I would do that because it is free, easy and will give you a good idea of the condition of the engine. There is a big difference between knowing something isn't quite right and doing something about it though .

C Would be my option, with a caveat that I still might rebuild a B230E for fun to drop in at a later date.
B is not me (although I might consider getting some standard volvo alloy wheels to replace the steels it is on now).


A new toy arrived from Amazon this afternoon, a wifi endoscope for the grand sum of £20. It had a lot of good reviews.. when I opened the pack, I found a card offering me a £20 amazon voucher if I left a review with a video and pictures
Free endoscope!
In actual fact though, I'm really impressed with it, the picture is quite clear...



It's actually hit the inlet valve on all 4 cylinders.
(the other mark in the second picture was where I poked something into No1 to see if I was approaching TDC when diagnosing the breakdown originally)

That said, I don't think knowing this changes much now, when I went to pick up the C70 from its MOT (a pass) I showed the pictures and the video of it running. His opinion - "if it were mine I wouldn't bother taking the head off for that, the compression is good enough and it sounds alright"

So I'll sleep on it, but I think I'm going to carry on..


I had almost forgotten about the random parts bin approach volvo used to take in the rear wheel drive days, and this evening I've spent far too long trying to establish if this will fit:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/155124448125
There seem to be about 9 billion variations of the exhaust system.
Looking at VIDA, the part number suggested for my car looks nothing like the volvo back box which is fitted (which looks like just the bosal one above) and the part number on the existing box - 9179120 - isn't found at all in VIDA so thats obviously quite an old part.
(I used to have VADIS but I haven't got room for both and I definitely need vida for the whiteblock motors.)

This listing for something that would be much lower quality that will allegedly fit does list the one above as a cross reference https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/354713732...Bk9SR96Y3MWBYg

I am tempted to take a flyer and 'make' it fit if its not quite right. The only reason it wouldn't would be if the pipe diameter was different, but there is plenty of room under there to move it towards the rear of the car a bit if I needed to get a sleeve welded on to correct that; and a bosal one will last much longer than a brand new one that only costs that much.

[SalvadorP]

Originally Posted by Chris1Roll

It had a lot of good reviews..

Originally Posted by Chris1Roll

I found a card offering me a £20 amazon voucher if I left a review

I think there might be a connection there.

Filter for bad reviews and see how many people are complaining they didn't receive the 20€. In other words, it's a scam, and a somewhat well known one. If you complain to amazon about not receiving the 20 pounds, they are within their right to terminate your account. Fake reviews are a big issue for mister Jeff.

Just an example of a random product offering the same incredible deal. See if anyone says they received the money (spoiler alert, they did not): https://www.amazon.com/ask/questions...k_ql_ql_al_hza

20 bucks is steal a good deal.