Powershift v Geartronic

[zimbo565]

Thanks for all your input, it's been very helpful.

From what I've seen re VW or Audi with the DSG boxes the problem seems to be with the Mechatronics unit and also the dual mass flywheel (DMF) so it is interesting to hear that these don't seem to be a problem with the Powershift.

It seems that most modern diesels (except those with a conventional auto box) use a DMF so I'm guessing the S40 will have one as well, even with the Powershift?

The consumption of the S40 Powershift over the Geartronic is very appealing as is the cheaper road tax and insurance but will be a bit of a false saving if new clutches are needed every 40k!

[Clan]

There isnt a dual mass flywheel as such just a thin drive plate , the flywheel is in the powershift gearbox .

[faffi]

If you plan to keep your car for a decade, you'll need a bit of luck for it to be economical - so many things can wear out or electronics can give trouble. So you're down to average assumptions in that one bloke could buy a Citroen and have no issues whatsoever in 10 years, whereas another can have nothing but repair upon repair on his BMW - but statistically it would be reversed.

It would be interesting to learn the average cost over 10 years and 150,000 miles between a diesel and a petrol of the same car with similar engine power. The diesel cost more to buy and - on average - will have considerable repair bills over a petrol in that period. I'll speculate that it could easily surpass what one saves in fuel.

A traditional automatic gearbox is very reliable, but not very efficient and the slurring is irritating. The next development was the lock-up function in the upper or two upper gears. This was the same basic gearbox with the added functionality of omitting the slurring under steady driving at speed, saving fuel when cruising. Unfortunatly, reliability suffered somewhat with the lock-up and inner city consumption remained poor compared to a manual gearbox.

The next to come was the electronic automatic 'box, like the Geartronic. Horrible contraptions that shift slower than a traditional gearbox and is even less efficient, despite offering lock-up in every gear that one would expect to deliver economy close to a manual gearbox. Reliability is overall fairly good, but since they're electronically controlled you do risk kokk-ups that can drive you mad if it decides to act up. And no, you will not always get fault codes. I know. I used to have a Mondeo 5-tronic.

The best system in theory is the most modern automatic shifter, like the Powershift. Seamless shifts without delay due to the use of 2 clutches and otherwise like a standard manual gearbox used in motorcycles for ages. They could have been made entirely mechanical, but people do not want to operate the stick, so electronics are heavily involved - and also the only thing to give trouble in normal use provided a decent design. Electronics can, however, cause major havoc if they act up. Still, I would expect reliable operation in most cases and economy should be excellent in that the engine can always operate in its most economical range, especially now that we see 8 and even 9 speed shifters appearing.

Which brings us back to economy. I would, again on average, expect a Powershift or similar gearbox to be cheaper over time - on average - than any other type of auto gearbox on the market. That includes fuel consumption and expected repairs. A basic manual gearbox will probably be cheaper due to lower purchase price - provided you know how to drive smoothly. Erratic or harsh drivers will benefit from automatic assistance.

In conclusion - I really do know how to waste people's time, don't I? - if I demanded automatic gearchanges and long term reliablity and economy, ideally I would buy a car with a small, reasonably powerful turbo petrol in combination with some sort of dual clutch gearbox from a brand with a good reputation for reliability and a solid warranty.

[froggyted]

I asked a similar question a while ago as a prospective buyer, so this thread might be useful:

http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=105304

In the end i opted for a 2.0D 08 Powershift. I've had the car for 5 months now and overall am very pleased with it, and will soon post a review on another thread i started: http://www.volvoforums.org.uk/showthread.php?t=92683

[tayandre]

Originally Posted by Daim

I should have said "dropped" in combination with the diesels... Afaik the same goes for Ford with the 2.0 Duratorq/TDCI

Powershift is available on all Ford 2.0 diesels now - Focus, C-Max, S-Max, Kuga 2WD and 4WD, Mondeo.

In the US the dry-clutch version of Powershift is available with pertrol models - Fiesta and Focus - same cars as Europe. I guess in time they will be in Europe also.

The very same transmittion installed on Powershift V/S/XC60.

Originally Posted by 961

Is it not the case that the latest VAG DSG gearbox is different in that it runs dry, i.e. it has no (or very little) oil whereas the Volvo box as said above runs in oil

Not quite - 6 speed DSG is a wet clutch, used on diesels and petrols with higher torque. 7 speed DSG is dry clutch and used on smaller engine petrols, typically up to 1.4TSFI.

We used to have a Passat TDI with DSG - a great gearbox under heavy acceleration - the gearchanges are even quicker than Powershift. However the rest of the time the changes were not as smooth, low speed reversing and 1st gear were particularly lumpy. We also had issues with mechantronics - the car left us at 90k miles, the gearbox had deteriorated noticeably in shift quality and the DMF was beggining to judder at idle.

DSG is Borg Warner product, Powershift is made by Getrag.

[froggyted]

Originally Posted by tayandre

We used to have a Passat TDI with DSG - a great gearbox under heavy acceleration - the gearchanges are even quicker than Powershift. However the rest of the time the changes were not as smooth, low speed reversing and 1st gear were particularly lumpy. We also had issues with mechantronics - the car left us at 90k miles, the gearbox had deteriorated noticeably in shift quality and the DMF was beggining to judder at idle.

DSG is Borg Warner product, Powershift is made by Getrag.

Just out of interest, wouldn't constant heavy acceleration increase wear on the Powershift transmission, and reduce service life? Over the 5 months i've had mine i've occasionally floored the accelerator pedal, mainly to see what the car's capable of, but have decided to back off this a bit now because i'm worried about having an expensive transmission bill a few years hence.

My biggest criticism with the Powershift is reverse gear. I've driven manuals for 30 years before this, and find that selecting reverse on a camber (e.g. doing a three-point turn) can be a bit hairy, since the car sometimes rolls forward a bit until you provide enough throttle for it to move backwards. When reversing back onto my drive, which is on a bit of a camber, i'm always worried about giving it too much throttle and ending up hitting the concrete fence post! Manuals seem more controllable in this respect, since you can ride the clutch a bit to keep full control of the car.

[zimbo565]

Thanks for the links froggyted, interesting lunchtime reading.

As a quick hi-jack from the post topic how have you found the DPF? Do you have to regenerate it often? Also, have you found any solutions to the poor dipped beam?

I like the sound of the Powershift but was a bit concerned about the problems that VW had with the DSG and whether these were symptomatic of the general design or unique to the Borg Warner interpretation. I'm also a bit worried that as the Pwershift was only introduced mid 2008 that maybe any weaknesses haven't shown themselves yet.

We are looking at a 2008 2.0 Powershift Volvo Selekt car at the weekend which, if we go for it, should come with a years guarantee which may give some comfort and there is also a 2008 2.4 Geartronic Volvo Selekt car at another nearby garage.

Decisions, decisions!

[961]

Originally Posted by tayandre

Powershift is available on all Ford 2.0 diesels now - Focus, C-Max, S-Max, Kuga 2WD and 4WD, Mondeo.

In the US the dry-clutch version of Powershift is available with pertrol models - Fiesta and Focus - same cars as Europe. I guess in time they will be in Europe also.

The very same transmittion installed on Powershift V/S/XC60.



Not quite - 6 speed DSG is a wet clutch, used on diesels and petrols with higher torque. 7 speed DSG is dry clutch and used on smaller engine petrols, typically up to 1.4TSFI.

We used to have a Passat TDI with DSG - a great gearbox under heavy acceleration - the gearchanges are even quicker than Powershift. However the rest of the time the changes were not as smooth, low speed reversing and 1st gear were particularly lumpy. We also had issues with mechantronics - the car left us at 90k miles, the gearbox had deteriorated noticeably in shift quality and the DMF was beggining to judder at idle.

DSG is Borg Warner product, Powershift is made by Getrag.

Yes, that's right re 6 and 7 speed boxes. When I looked at a VW only the 6 speed was available and there was a 6 month waiting list for the newly introduced 7 speed on the smaller petrol engines

I was rather put off by a road test (Clarkson style) which managed to produce smoke and a burning smell on the dry clutch and decided it needed time to see if it was reliable in the hands of the public

I couldn't wait 6 months either because the standard auto box in my Beemer 3 was beginning to have problems, largely, I must confess, from dragging full loads of wine back from Calais to the Borders.

Although that is no longer a factor since every little helps at the local Tesco these days and fuel costs more than wine it's probably fair to say that auto boxes of any design can get picky and need work on them when they get older

Some of the original designs can literally go on forever but economical they are not

I think the powershift is a good choice on the Volvo 2 litre, giving well over 40mpg. I've no doubt if you thrash it hard enough you'll get trouble, but certainly we find it does the business and we certainly don't tootal around at 40mph all the time. What we probably don't do a lot of is floor the accelerator at every available opportunity

[froggyted]

Hi zimbo565, I’m glad you found the links useful. I won’t have time to post the in-depth review of my 2.0D Powershift before you view at the weekend, but overall I think it’s an excellent car, easily the best I’ve owned, and a massive improvement on the S40 Classic, which was itself a very well built model (in the latter years). The 2.0 diesel engine gives an impressive amount of power, the vehicle handles assuredly, the seating and driving position are excellent, and it’s really well equipped (I have the SE Lux variant, to which the original owner requested a sunroof and reverse parking sensors). The information display gives you comprehensive information about all sorts of things, including whether you’ve left a door/boot/bonnet open, whether your washer reservoir needs topping up etc., and sometimes, with all the lights and onboard displays, including the overhead seat belt display, I feel like I’m stepping into a spaceship! There are also lots of thoughtful design touches, such as the illuminated space behind the ‘floating’ console; the drinks can mouldings in the door recesses; the way the radio display dims with the rest of the display to the setting you’ve selected at night, but remains on full brightness during the day; the way the display lighting scheme reverses for night driving, etc. etc. etc. The design of the climate control could have been given a little more thought (for example, you push the climate control knob to activate it, but you can’t turn it off by pushing again, you have to manually select other options and then readjust the blower speed). I’ve also had an issue with the hinges breaking on the grocery bag holder in the boot space (see separate thread), but overall I am very pleased with my purchase (I bought mine as a Volvo ‘Selekt’ used car too).

I appreciate your point that maybe the Powershift transmission has not been in service long enough to be sure about longevity, although I would have thought that by now a fair few reps would have clocked up 70k or more. It’s going to be fingers crossed about that!

I’ve had no problems whatsoever with the DPF. The service schedule doesn’t call for this to be replaced until 6 years or 75k miles, and I’ve never had a message on the display saying that it needs regenerating, despite a fair proportion of short-haul journeys.

In the end I readjusted the beam alignment myself, with the help of a Haynes manual. I’d previously asked the main dealer to check it during servicing. They didn’t report back, so presumably thought it was ok, but I found it severely wanting, especially when facing oncoming traffic going downhill, where the beam wasn’t lighting enough of the near kerb for me to feel safe. The height adjuster is the lower of the two, and if I remember correctly, the beam is heightened by turning anti-clockwise with a 6mm. socket (you will need an extendable driver to get to it, it’s quite deep down). After adjusting I have found the dipped beam to be very satisfactory. I adjusted it to its maximum (the height adjustment is limited, and when the adjuster comes to the end of its travel it just clicks). I’ve had two vehicles flash me in several hours of driving, so perhaps it needs lowering just a smidgeon (my initial adjustment was only slightly lower than my final adjustment and I had no issues with drivers flashing me, again over several hours of night driving). It will be very interesting to see if they fail the beam alignment in the MOT in June, and if they do and adjust it too low I’ll simply readjust again, because I’m not prepared to risk smashing the car or hitting an unseen pedestrian or something. The poor dipped beam has been discussed in several threads on this forum, and is the only major irritant with the car, but as I say, once the beam is brought up to a satisfactory level it’s as good as any other car I’ve driven. I suspect that because it’s a different kind of light unit to most of the others out of there (projecting the light rather than reflecting the beam off the reflector), the MOT templates might not be allowing for accurate adjustment. I also equipped the car with Halford’s ultrabright bulbs, but I discovered later that these are generally not very well regarded, so when they fail I’ll replace them with Osram Nightbreakers, which are highly regarded on this forum (just do a search). Incidentally, the main beam is excellent - very bright.

Anyway, good luck, and I hope you are pleased with your eventual purchase.

[froggyted]

Originally Posted by 961

Although that is no longer a factor since every little helps at the local Tesco these days and fuel costs more than wine it's probably fair to say that auto boxes of any design can get picky and need work on them when they get older

Some of the original designs can literally go on forever but economical they are not

I think the powershift is a good choice on the Volvo 2 litre, giving well over 40mpg. I've no doubt if you thrash it hard enough you'll get trouble, but certainly we find it does the business and we certainly don't tootal around at 40mph all the time. What we probably don't do a lot of is floor the accelerator at every available opportunity

Yes, i've found that fairly restrained driving will return an mpg in the low 40s, with a mixture of urban and open road driving, and on the motorway nearer 50 if you drive at about 70mph. On an open road without too many stop-starts, at an average speed around 50mph you can get over 50mpg.